Michaels word works in LivingOsho from 2006 till his end

Building web-sites - help!                                              Gandolf

# 1 Sat Apr 29, 2006 1:12 pm                                            (all)

# 1 Sun Apr 30, 2006 9:44 am                                           Vimalgit

# 1 Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:12 am                                          Ali-Suviro

# 1 Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:19 pm                                            Shantam

# 1 Mon May 1, 2006 8:59 am                                             Shantam

# 1 Mon May 1, 2006 10:33 am                                        Ali-Suviro/n0by

# 1 Mon May 1, 2006 1:26 pm                                         Ali/Shantam

# 1 Mon May 1, 2006 1:55 pm                                       Sampas-Sadhananda

# 1 Mon May 1, 2006 2:23 pm                                           'The Buff'

# 1 Mon May 1, 2006 10:33 pm                            Sheela, Somendra (Michael Barnett), Bodhidharma

# 1 Tue May 2, 2006 4:45 pm                                         Shantam

# 1 Tue May 2, 2006 5:38 pm                                         Shantam

# 1 Tue May 2, 2006 6:28 pm                                         Samarpan

# 1 Wed May 3, 2006 6:34 am                                        ganesh naik

# 1 Wed May 3, 2006 12:09 pm                                         Shantam

# 1 Wed May 3, 2006 12:11 pm                                       ganesh naik

# 1 Wed May 3, 2006 4:05 pm                                    Shantam about Sadhananda

# 1 Wed May 3, 2006 10:30 pm                                       For Sarlo

Indivisible "Individuals"                                      Paul Prakash Dennis

# 1 Thu May 4, 2006 11:28 am                                    Ali-Suviro

# 1 Thu May 4, 2006 5:16 pm                                     vikas lodha

# 1 Fri May 5, 2006 9:46 am                                       Shantam

# 1 Sat May 6, 2006 10:17 am                                    Anupam Archer

# 1 Sun May 7, 2006 12:03 pm                                Anupam, Sarlo and Vikas

The occult mysteries of initiation                              Dear friends and foes

The occult mysteries of initiation Wed May 10, 2006 11:36 pm        Sarlo

The occult mysteries of initiation Thu May 11, 2006 2:13 pm       Samarpan

The occult mysteries of initiation Fri May 12, 2006 8:20 am       everybody

The occult mysteries of initiation Fri May 12, 2006 10:58 am       Loke CP

Christian Virgins Are Overrated                                    Sarlo

Christian Virgins Are Overrated Sat May 13, 2006 11:01 pm          Sarlo

Christian Virgins Are Overrated Sun May 14, 2006 1:09 pm         deleted

The occult mysteries of initiation Sun May 14, 2006 8:17 pm      Ganesh

Christian Virgins Are Overrated Mon May 15, 2006 5:27 am          Sarlo

Christian Virgins Are Overrated Mon May 15, 2006 10:06 am         Shantam

Christian Virgins Are Overrated Wed May 17, 2006 12:35 am         ganesh naik

Christian Virgins Are Overrated   Wed May 17, 2006 8:27 am          Sarlo

Christian Virgins Are Overrated Wed May 17, 2006 9:35 am            Shantam

Vivek's suicide and past life with Osho.                            Dharia

Vivek's suicide and past life with Osho. Sun Jul 9, 2006 7:56 pm    Dharia

Re: Reincarnation                                                  Surendra

Vivek's suicide and past life with Osho.Sun Jul 9, 2006 8:50 pm  'The Buff'

Vivek's suicide and past life with Osho.Sun Jul 9, 2006 11:13 pm   all

Vivek's suicide and past life with Osho.Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:10 am  Ali_Suviro

Vivek's suicide and past life with Osho.Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:16 pm   Ali-Suviro

Vivek's suicide and past life with Osho.Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:41 pm     Dharia

Vivek's suicide and past life with Osho.Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:00 am     Dharia

Vivek's suicide and past life with Osho.Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:05 am    Sarlo

Dharia's rant                                                       Dharia

Vivek's suicide and past life with Osho.Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:49 am    Hans

Dharia's rant Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:50 am                             Dharia

Dharia's rant Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:44 pm                              Dharia

Dharia's rant Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:38 pm                              Dharia

Dharia's rant Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:56 pm                              Jayen

Vivek's suicide and past life with Osho.Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:04 pm   Sarlo

Dharia's rant Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:35 pm                             Dharia

Dharia's rant Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:58 am                             Jayen

Dharia's rant Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:21 am                             Dharia

Vivek's suicide and past life with Osho.Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:59 am    Hans

Dharia's rant Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:36 am                              Dharia

Dharia's rant Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:25 am                           Ali-Suviro

Dharia's rant Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:39 pm                            Dharia

Dharia's rant Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:42 am                          Ali-Suviro

Motherhood ( was Re: [LivingOsho] Re: The Stinker In The Temple) Anupam Archer

Motherhood and the dominance of men                                Sarlo

Motherhood once more                                           No kiss for Mama.

Motherhood ( was Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:17 am                        Tanmayo

Motherhood Fri Jul 14, 2006 4:12 pm                               Tanmayo

Motherhood and the dominance of men                               Sarlo

Motherhood and the dominance of men Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:56 am      Hans

Motherhood Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:01 pm                              Tanmayo

Motherhood Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:13 am                               Jayen

seeking a copy of this                                          gondolf1

Motherhood Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:56 am                             Tanmayo

Motherhood Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:48 am                            Tanmayo

Motherhood Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:52 pm                              Shantam

Motherhood Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:23 pm                              Tanmayo

Motherhood Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:41 pm                              Tanmayo

Motherhood Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:15 am                             Shantam

Motherhood Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:45 am                             Jayen

seeking a copy of this                                        about Sheela

seeking a copy of this Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:26 am                gondolf1

Motherhood Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:01 pm                             Tanmayo

Motherhood Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:18 pm                             Tanmayo

seeking a copy of this Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:01 pm                 Jayen

Motherhood Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:37 pm                          Nirguna/Shantam

Motherhood Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:39 pm                            Dharia

From no-no-no to no-mind Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:02 pm            Ali-Suviro

From no-no-no to no-mind Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:56 pm            Ali-Suviro

Motherhood Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:07 am                           Dharia

Alan Watts riff                                              Jayen

Motherhood and the dominance of men Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:40 pm Hans

Kundalini                                                   gerdeslan

About awakening                                           willy.persson

About awakening Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:21 pm                 Satrakshita

Alan Watts riff Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:27 pm                   Sarlo

About awakening Mon Aug 14, 2006 1:44 am                  'The Buff'

About awakening Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:18 am                   'The Buff'

Motherhood Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:37 am                           Hans

Alan Watts riff Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:06 am                      Jayen

Hi                                                     Shantam about Dharia

Hello                                                          Dharia

Hello Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:12 pm                                 Dharia

Alan Watts riff Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:04 pm                       Jayen

Hi Uncle                                                     Ali-Suviro

Hi Uncle Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:44 am                             Dharia

Hi Uncle Fri Aug 18, 2006 10:10 am                             Dharia

Hello Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:55 pm                                 Nirguna

Motherhood Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:54 pm                             Hans

Hi Uncle Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:28 pm                               Dharia

Hi Uncle Sat Aug 19, 2006 11:31 am                      Anupam Archer to Dharia

Don't just loose - you goose                                    Ali-Suviro

Hi Uncle Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:50 am                             Anupam Archer

Don't just loose - you goose Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:54 am          Ali-Suviro

Enlightenment pure                                                 all

Don't just loose - you goose Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:36 pm           free willy

Hi Uncle Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:45 pm                                 Dharia

Hi Uncle  Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:34 pm                                Dharia

Don't just loose - you goose Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:24 pm            Nirguna

Hi Uncle Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:33 am                                Dharia

Don't just loose - you goose Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:41 am          Tanmayo

Don't just loose - you goose Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:36 am          Tanmayo

Don't just loose - you goose Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:44 am            Dharia

Hi Uncle Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:04 am                                Dharia

Hi Uncle Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:27 am                                Dharia

Don't just loose - you goose Tue Aug 22, 2006 9:38 am            Dharia

Don't just loose - you goose Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:31 pm            Dharia

Don't just loose - you goose Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:38 pm            ali-Suviro

Don't just loose - you goose Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:18 pm            Ali-Suviro

Kabeer's dreams                                                  Ali-Suviro

Imagination                                                     Max <manard1

Kabeer's dreams Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:03 am                        Hans

more new planets                                                 Jayen

Motherhood Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:37 pm                             Hans

(no subject)                                                     Dharia

Oil the hinges of the thiefdoor please.                            all

Sadness                                                          Diarrhea

Nicknames                                                       Sadhananda

The G.U.R.U. Newsletter #14                                     atul kukadia

Re:                                                              Nirguna

The G.U.R.U. Newsletter #14 Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:42 pm             Sarlo

Newsletter #14 Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:35 am                         'somebody'

Happy birthday to you!                                            Osho

You simply follow your feelings                                   rpana3

osho's views on god.                                         Most Reverend Sarlo

I don't question, that you are a struggling seeker of truth.       all

You simply follow your feelings Mon Dec 25, 2006 3:35 pm          rpana3

Happy birthday to you! Mon Dec 25, 2006 6:42 pm                     Osho

Osho says.                                                       Surendra

Osho says. Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:52 pm                         swamiali - Suviro

Osho says. Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:12 pm                              Shantam

Last breakfast today - just before dinner.                       YouTube

Osho says.Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:07 am                              Anupam Archer

Gaggle                                                             swamiali

I found the solution!!!                                              DOG

I found the solution!!! Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:04 pm               Joshu (A.D. 778-897)

Osho says. Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:11 pm                                Shantam

Jivano is dead, Frodo lives in the kindergarden.                 swamiali

Gaggle Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:08 pm                                 Sarlo

I found the solution!!! Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:24 pm                  all

I found the solution!!! Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:19 pm                 Tanmayo

Gaggle Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:53 pm                                   Dharia

I found the solution!!! Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:32 pm                 Tanmayo

Gaggle Sun Dec 31, 2006 10:46 pm                                  Sarlo

Osho says. Mon Jan 1, 2007 1:17 am                                Dharia

Osho says. Tue Jan 2, 2007 2:52 am                                swamiali

Greed is greed Tue Jan 2, 2007 3:14 pm                              all

without a title Tue Jan 2, 2007 4:02 pm                         Kundalini

Osho says. Wed Jan 3, 2007 6:45 pm                               swamiali

Wispers from the sidelines                                 Bodhidharma in China

spam tool                                                       Shantam

If you speak German...                             (der deutsche) Bodhidharma,

Take note                                                       Tanmayo

Greed is greed Sat Jan 6, 2007 1:04 pm                        tara madeva

If you speak German... Sat Jan 6, 2007 1:27 pm                   Pavitro

Take note Sat Jan 6, 2007 1:57 pm                           spiritual_buffalo

Greed is greed Sat Jan 6, 2007 2:42 pm                         Tanmayo

Take note Sat Jan 6, 2007 2:46 pm                              Tanmayo

Greed is greed Sat Jan 6, 2007 4:27 pm                          Hans

Greed is greed Sat Jan 6, 2007 4:29 pm                         swamiali

Greed is greed Sat Jan 6, 2007 4:53 pm                         Shantam

our daily greed give us, Lord                                  swamiali

our daily greed give us, Lord Sun Jan 7, 2007 9:26 am         Anupam

our daily greed give us, Lord Sun Jan 7, 2007 11:26 am     tara madeva

our daily greed give us, Lord Sun Jan 7, 2007 3:56 pm      tara madeva

our daily greed give us, Lord Sun Jan 7, 2007 5:13 pm      Nirguna

our daily greed give us, Lord Sun Jan 7, 2007 5:47 pm      Dharia

Have a cup of tea (was Please love me ...)                 Nirguna

our daily greed give us, Lord Mon Jan 8, 2007 3:20 pm    Tara and list

Greed is greed Mon Jan 8, 2007 9:42 pm                     Shantam

our daily greed give us, Lord Mon Jan 8, 2007 9:54 pm       swamiali

our daily greed give us, Lord Tue Jan 9, 2007 1:28 pm       Archan

our daily greed give us, Lord Tue Jan 9, 2007 2:01 pm        Archan

our daily greed give us, Lord Tue Jan 9, 2007 2:12 pm        spiritual_buffalo

To Michael Zimmermann                                             Dharia

Cake ? Try this non fattening alternative Michael              ma_devatara

our daily greed give us, Lord Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:01 am          Anupam Archer

our daily greed give us, Lord Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:59 am           Surendra

our daily greed give us, Lord Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:45 am           swamiali

Greed is greed Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:58 am                           Hans

Greed is greed Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:49 am                        ma_devatara

our daily greed give us, Lord Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:13 pm           hans

our daily greed give us, Lord Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:23 pm            hans

Greed is greed  Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:09 pm                         Anurag

our daily greed give us, Lord Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:24 pm           rb2lb2

Greed is greed Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:44 pm                        Dharia

Greed is greed Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:03 am                         Dharia

our daily greed give us, Lord Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:23 am         Shit is

I will slowly confine myself to a room                         Dear Osho

will slowly confine myself to a room Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:16 pm   aghorabhairav

I will slowly confine myself Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:44 pm           aghorabhairav

our daily greed give us, Lord Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:17 pm           rb2lb2

I will slowly confine myself Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:23 am        aghorabhairav

our daily greed give us, Lord Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:40 am       Anupam Archer

I will slowly confine...Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:45 am               tara madeva

I will slowly confine...Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:16 pm               aghorabhairav

our daily greed give us, Lord  Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:03 pm         Archan

our daily greed give us, Lord Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:18 pm           Laura

I will slowly confine...Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:50 pm              ma_devatara

Death                                                            Hans

our daily greed give us, Lord  Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:23 am       Anupam Archer

I will slowly confine ....Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:29 am            aghorabhairav

Pushing buttons                                                  Osho

Pushing buttons  Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:21 pm                     ma_devatara

our daily greed give us, Lord Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:37 am         Laura rb2lb2

Pushing buttons   Sun Jan 14, 2007 10:53 am                      ma_devatara

our daily greed give us, Lord Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:57 pm            swamiali

our daily greed give us, Lord Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:50 am             Hans

Thorn counters versus rose counters                              Those people

Thorn counters versus rose counters Mon Jan 15, 2007 6:50 pm         Dharia

Osho's active meditations                                            Daniel

Meher Baba saying                                                spiritual_buffalo

Osho's active meditations Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:35 am              spiritual_buffalo

Osho's active meditations   Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:46 pm            spiritual_buffalo

The Sarcasm Mark                                                switch on your brain

Osho's active meditations Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:36 pm               spiritual_buffalo

The Sarcasm Mark  Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:02 pm                       spiritual_buffalo

The Sarcasm Mark  Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:11 pm                       spiritual_buffalo

our daily greed give us, Lord  Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:12 pm             Hans

Meher Baba saying Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:58 am                         Shantam

So whenever you can, just go for a walk in the rain.            getting too much

Astral projection                                                    all

Astral projection Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:44 pm                        Bones

Astral projection and other esoteric bullshit                     Nirguna

Astral projection and other esoteric bullshit 18, 2007 5:49 pm    satrakshita

Strong Buddha - strong ego                                        swamiali

Astral projection Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:18 pm                        Bones

...and other esoteric bullshit Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:19 pm        Satrakshita

..and other esoteric bullshit  Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:38 pm         Bones

The ego feeds on no, it is its nourishment.                     Arpana

..other esoteric bullshit..Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:56 pm          Satrakshita

Re: If I am, you are too / land mines / .....                             Hans

our daily greed give us, Lord Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:07 pm                 ma_devatara

our daily greed give us, Lord Fri Jan 19, 2007 7:55 pm                 ma_devatara

our daily greed give us, Lord Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:05 pm               mapremdharia

our daily greed give us, Lord  Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:22 am              ma_devatara

our daily greed give us, Lord Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:53 am               ma_devatara

Re: Building web-sites - help! 


> At 10:14 AM 3/27/06, Gondolf wrote:
> Does anyone have any suggestions where I can learn how to
> build a web-site. Please keep in mind that I am somewhat
> computer challenged.


A) How to create the pages [for editors and other dummies].

Many text-oriented people are allready experienced using Microsoft
Word. If that's the case, just use MW Word and save the page with
"save as.." using "HTML page" as the Format. Experiment with it,
until you have what you want on you PC. I usually put all the
pages of one website into a single Folder (say on my Desktop).

To have a look, you just open this folder and click on a page.

To change something (i.e. edit the pages), start MS Word again
and open the html-file with it.

It's also a good idea not to use spaces or LaRgE letters in the
name of the pages (most webservers handle large letters in file
names differently than MS Windows does).


B) How to put the pages online [for the first time in your life]

Most probably you will use FTP (File Transfer Protocoll) for this,
that is you will have gotten a

FTP-server name (say "mydomain.com")
FTP-user name (say "gondolf")
FTP-password

The most simple method for a complete beginner is it to use
the internet explorer:

just type

ftp://gondolf@mydomain.com

into the address-line of the browser and then enter the FTP-password
into the authentication-box, which opens.
The address to enter is "ftp://" plus the FTP-Username plus "@"
plus the FTP-servername.

You may then pull the files from one window into the other
as if the folders were on your computer.


If that browser-trick doesn't work or if you want more comfort
(after a while you will want to), get one of the many free
FTP-programs from a download site like TwoCows.com .



HTH
Michael

# 1

Trying to expand my consciousness is like trying
to make my personal computer more intelligent.

There is already immense consciousness and love,
more than I will ever need, more than I could ever
grasp; only my connection to it needs to be cleared,
and that cannot be done by me anyway.

Trying to improve my spiritual situation
means negating this reality.

The reason for any spiritual school, Ashram,
monastery, meditation class, pressure cooker,
enlightenment intensive group, Koan, meditation,
exercise, encounter, lecture or email list is just
to frustrate me until I give up and bow down.


Nowhere to go
nothing to achieve
just cleaning the kitchen
before baking the cake.


Love

Jivano

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: # 1 


Shantam wrote:

> Closedness has its function and its use too.

Yes, pain-reduction.


> But wonder why you are giving ADVICE to Ali, after what you wrote just a
> few sentences ago?
> I trust your open-ness will resonate to this simple question...
>
> > And don't call me "old chap" - we have neither played in
> > kindergarden together nor am I you uncle.
>
> Ah... resistance..
>
> Wasn't it you who wrote us some nice pieces about 'resistance' a while ago?

You seem to be more interested about Ali and my relationship with him
than about me and you. And you also try to "define" me thru logic, try to
figure me out, before you say anything about yourself. Let's try a more
direct contact...


Shantam => peace? What' your face like? I ask that, bacause from
the questions and doubts of your text "peace" is not the first word,
which comes to mind.


Jivano

7910

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: # 1


Am Montag, 1. Mai 2006 09:34 schrieb swamiali@...:
> hey shantam baba, don't be so shy and resistant ...
> send him a pic of your bulgarina donkey and he will be satisfied
>
> and if you send him a pic of your cadillac he will faint totally

Hi Ali,

some years ago I brought this other "professional" anonymous
upsetter, EAST aka N0by, together with one of Bodhidharma's
so called "enlightened" disciples, a young woman with a nice figure
and an even nicer ability to upset anybody. To give you an idea
about what caliber she was: B. once said to me, that she could
handle five man of my energy at the same time without any trouble.

When N0by came, she was just kind and lovely toward him, you know.
She smiled, answered all of his provocations in a soft tone, didn't
look away, didn't ignore him any second - she was just open and
sweet with him. N0by first provoced as usual, but after a few minutes
he got so furious that he had to gulp down his salad as fast as he
could and jumped up and out of the restaurant as fast as humanly
possible. A complete one-punch knock-out.

N0by could not stand a normal conversation. He still cannot accept
an objective memory of that meeting, and will tell anything, anything
else.

Not unlike Shantam, our great peaceful one, who is unable to grasp
the simple fact, that not answering to his provocations and showing
him the tiny communication limits of his personality-playpen is my
answer to him and his spirit, as I see him.


We GREAT fighting spirits... we are helpless without somebody
to fight with. And full of fear to put down our armor.


Jivano

back

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: # 1 


Dear Ali,

you wrote:

> I think Shantam is not stupid, though he lives with a donkey.
> btw. is your mule fine?

I say:

Since when is it about Shantam for you and me? Some years ago, when we first
met, you have not been so stupid to mix and mangle what is said to you
and to somebody else. At least that was my impression.

Now you don't even ignore what i say to you personally, you
also jump in to answer emails meant for other persons.

Perhaps you hang aroung too much in so called spiritual email lists?
Because this inability to differentiate between a personal truth and
a common truth (or one of another person) is typical of seeker groups
without the direct guidance of a master.


> And who draws the distinction between resistance and a simple No?

For me: I do.

He who doesn't listen to his heart needs to listen to others, play with words
and finally rely only on the distinctions his mind can see.


> Figthing is a must for all Great watcher spirits, speaks my personal
> monkey

Wrong in several aspects at once.

Not all watchers are fighters.
Fighting is a must only for fighters/thinkers and only in
the beginning. While the reason why fighting is helpful
does not lie in winning.

Fighting and watching are two different things.
The hidden bliss of fighting comes thru loosing,
in loosing fighting may lead to watching.

The higher your opponent is in a mental fight,
the better your chances are to learn and loose
and learn loosing (i.e. learn to go out of your
mind into your heart).


If one is timid of loosing, one is timid first of all;
all big words and aggressive attitudes cannot
hide that.


Tell your monkey to strip off the banana peel
before eating the banana or decide not to eat it :P


I mean: tell your mind, to look at the consequences
and implications of an idea before accepting it as valid
for the present situation.

Just an advice from one mule/monkey to the other ;)


Jivano

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: # 1 


Am Montag, 1. Mai 2006 11:24 schrieb Sampas:
> And now the question remains whether this 'oh so' reasonable reply from
> Jivano is fighting or not?
>
> Sadhananda

Why?
Why question?
Why trying to be more reasonable or wiser?
Why trying to answer this out of the mind?
Why answering/questioning at all?


Sadhananda, the question what is mind
and what is not seems to be an important
problem for you, too. And like Shantam
as well as Ali, you write as if a superordinate
viewpoint was possible for you in this aspect.


But only the mind itself questions that;
for the Buddha this is not even a question -
just the reason for a short laugh at most.


Interesting what bubbles up in a Sannyas list
from the original statement

"Trying to expand my consciousness is like trying
to make my personal computer more intelligent."

So it's really the "statement number one" for us, isn't it?
The most important belief for us is it, that we can improve
our consciousness, right? But it's only a strong belive,
it's not true at all.

The qualitativly lower can neither create nor improve the higher.


Greetings
Michael

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: # 1 


Am Montag, 1. Mai 2006 13:50 schrieb the buff:
> And what are you doing hanging around "so called spiritual mailling lists"?

Can't you smell it, Buffalo?
I mean: smell the faint but unmistakeable
smell of burning gras?

Think about it?
Discuss a little longer?
Chew over it one more day?
Meditate about it?
Look up an Osho quote regarding burning gras?
Fuck some more cows while waiting?


Greetings from Ka
--
"ka" is the sound of the second Kanji in the
attached Picture.

Re: # 2 


Interesting to eavesdrop conversations about
oneself, isn't it? I'm prying ;)


By the way, in the spiritual environment a negative
image is often provoked directly by Energy of the
person with the negative image herself. E.g. I got
the impulse "Go and tell them the truth about whatever..."
while the Energy knew very well, that the other persons
will react unfriendly. If that is no longer neccessary,
it's because the Energy changed. For me the development
is not felt as growth but rather as a reduction. I became less,
I didn't become more.

I wanted to explain that, because for my feelings there are still a lot of
misunderstandings in the Sannyas scene towards some of the older
Sannyasins who have been the target of such Energy- and Master-induced
ego-bashing.

For example: Sheela, Somendra (Michael Barnett), Bodhidharma. The divine
Energy is a great director of such stagings. But if we continue to follow the
old jaundices, we miss many opportunities - e.g. miss to go to Michael
Barnett, who is an enlightened Master of his own right -- or continue
to put our mistrust and negativity upon Sheela, instead of cleaning our
own consciousness and conscience from our hidden fascism (for which
Sheela was just set up by Bhagwan as a strawman for our projections).


Greetings
Jivano

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: # 1 


Hello Shantam,

Am Dienstag, 2. Mai 2006 10:20 schrieb Shantam:
> > > [ Sadhananda ] And now the question remains
> > > whether this 'oh so' reasonable reply
> > > > from Jivano is fighting or not?
> > [ Jivano ]
> > Why?
> > Why question?
> > Why trying to be more reasonable or wiser?
> > Why trying to answer this out of the mind?
> > Why answering/questioning at all?
> [ Shantam ]
> Why not?
> Why not question?
> Why not try to be more reasonable or wiser?
> Why not try to answer this out of the mind?
> Why not answering/questioning at all?

Dear Shantam, my comment was not a question about what
SHOULD be done and what SHOULD NOT be done. It was just
a reminder to Sadhananda, from what state he was answering -
the state of being or the state of doing. And for my feeling
Sadhananda understood that very well.

If you, Shantam, see it as a chance to react or even try to start a fight
- why not? As far as I am concerned you can of course do what you
want - I am taking the same right.

Do they come out of the space of being, or do they come
out of the space of right/wrong, conditioned and conditioning.

> Just to demonstrate/prove to others what a great 'no-mind' you are?

Aha, so you got the hint too. But you make it into something
to demonstrate/prove superiority. Do you think, only Osho has
a no-mind? There need to be a special development, some sort
of spiritual growth to happen, before one has a no-mind?
Only enlightened no-people are allowed to speak about it?
Or at least I am not allowed to do so, because I don't have a
no-mind? Before I am allowed to talk about anything, I have
to conform to your ideas about somebody talking about these
things?

So I can drive you crazy by talking about the "Buddha in
all of us"? Only Osho was ever allowed to do so?


> Sadhananda asks a very relevant question.

He is a relevant person.

> Who is fighting?

You, darling.

> The person who appears to be fighting, who openly puts up a fight...?
> Or the person who always appears peaceful no-matter-what, non-defending,
> never-quoting-Osho, etc..?

You are missing some Osho-quotes? I don't think so. For my feeling
you are missing a good fight. And you seem to want a fight with
and against the whole Sannyas scene with all it's false gurus, would-like-
to-be Masters and Osho-parrots. But the problem is (again for my feeling
of course), that you are not ready to have your inner Sannyas-scene
questioned.

Shantam, you flip out, when your system of Sannyas-believes is not
supported, when your dreams about enlightenment, Osho, self-development
is attacked.

So in a way you fight yourself, your own Sannyas-Ego, but at the same
time you don't have the guts to do it really.

> Chances are that this second person is all-fighting inside, fighting
> himself..
> Maybe the first person is only fighting/angry/beating on the outside, but
> all-peace within..

Ah, you even know it...

> There is no way to know, except for that person himself.

Yeah. And to keep the illusion, that you are yourself,
you better don't show anybody who you really are.


Jivano

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: # 1 


Am Dienstag, 2. Mai 2006 10:23 schrieb Shantam:
> There is a Master already.

This fixation unto a Master is an example for what I call "Sannyas Ego".


> And if you don't have the freedom to answer any of my simple 'brick and
> mortar' questions, first you need to be comforted with knowing my face..
> Then what good your 'answering the people' is going to be?
> It would be like talking about running a marathon, while we are not even
> capable of walking together.
> I first want to see if you can walk.
> That's my way of asking for your photo..

Intellectual justifications.

> You blame my 'mask' for the absence of closer communication, but remain
> silent about yours.
> Now, that mask of 'open-ness' has dropped already, you are using closedness
> quite extensively, not just in your exchanges with me...

At least twenty years of encounter and therapy groups, I suppose.

> But what about your masks of 'non-defensiveness', 'non-resistance',
> 'freedom from prison'...?
> These can be nice pieces of 'armour' too, just a bit more modern,
> sophisticated..
> These armours have no paint, so it is more difficult to see the cracks in
> it...
> And when that armour starts cracking up, you can always walk away, another
> nice 'piece de non-resistance', and come back whenever the going seems
> safe...

Your past is not my fault.

> Consider me a bit different.
> Yes, I am 'helpless' without somebody to fight with.
> But I am equally 'helpless' with somebody to fight with.
>
> Shantam is always helpless.
> Forever 'helpless', and having peace with it, living it...
> Helplessness is a great space to be.

A natural space.

> It is amusing to see that you are comparing me to noby.
> Yes, I may not be able to grasp your (non-)answer, but do you think you
> understood my provocations?

I got them as "help" calls or "hello, is there somebody? I feel alone.".
And at the same time I understand your tests and games as "don't you
dare come closer."


> I was not provoking you to see your 'reaction'/'answer' , next immediately
> diagnose that as evidence of your ego-resistance/armour.
> That's the easy game you prefer to play here.
> Just the game of 'noby-light'
> (perhaps take a copyright on that name before somebody else claims it.)
>
> The game I played was exactly the opposite.
> I was provoking you to see your display of total absence of any
> response/resistance/armour..., to see how closed you would remain to my
> questions even when pushing them a bit by repeating...
>
> Because I had seen your game before, read your ideas about
> non-defensiveness, etc...
> You are immediately pointing out 'resistance', 'defensiveness', 'ego',
> 'armour'...whenever somebody objects or disagrees with your provokations or
> diagnosis.
> As if this are the only possible explanations for somebody's disagreeing..
>
> But consequently, you will never or rarely 'defend' or 'resist' anything
> much when you are being provoked..
> Keeping up the appearances.
> The risk is that some alert clown here may return your 'favors' and point
> out that you are 'resisting' and defending just like everybody else...
> So, you play it safe, and you probably knew that answering any of my
> questions would not be very safe.
> You care about your invisible armour.
> That keeps you stuck on the great 'non-defending' picnic..., Munich plaza..

Pretty much past-oriented, don't you think so?

> But, it really smells no better than Ghandi's 'non-violence' for example.
> Very peaceful people...

I also have heard some lectures by Bhagwan, thank you ...

> I watched some of your writings on your previous visit here.
> The 'out-of-prison' series..
> And I was about to ask:
> " Good to hear you are out of prison, but how do like this nice new
> straightjacket you have taken on?"
>
> But you were too quick for me, and called it quits before I could ask.
> Maybe you came back to hear that question...

My email is an open secret, my pictures and writings were easily accessible
in the internet. You complain but don't act. Childish behaviour pattern.
You must really be very, very fond of your communication problems.


But OK, my answer now to you now:

There is no way to get out of the prison
or to get rid of the straight jacket.


Your turn.


> Non-defensiveness does not consist of not-defending.
> Non-resistance has nothing to do with never resisting.
> Non-fighting is not the same as not-fighting.
>
> That's enough for dessert...

Your thinking is more than enough for ten deserts.


Michael

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: # 1 


Am Dienstag, 2. Mai 2006 18:10 schrieb ganesh naik:
> Beloveds,
>
> From the following conversation i can only
> conclude that the whole conversation is not discussion
> but some kind of debate on what is right between "Why"
> and "Why Not". We can put any word ahead of "Why" and
> "Why Not" and keep the debate going on, but perhaps
> that lead to no end, because this is the duality of
> mind. Any thing can be "why" and any thing can be "why
> not", that depends on the attitude, conditioning of
> the mind of persona, only one self can be best judge
> for himself for what is right choice for him. But the
> real being is witnessing of both "why" and "why not"
> choicelessness.
>
> Samarpan

Then why did you choose to comment?
Please answer without the choice "why not".

Which Samarpan are you?
The one giving Satsangs?


Michael

Re: # 1 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, ganesh naik <ganesh_m_naik@...>
wrote:
>
> Beloved Michael,
>
> You have done hurry in replying my statement,

Dear Genesh,

thinking takes time, feeling happens instantaneously.

Have a nice day
Michael

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: # 1 


Am Mittwoch, 3. Mai 2006 08:45 schrieb Shantam:
> > Dear Shantam, my comment was not a question about what
> > SHOULD be done and what SHOULD NOT be done. It was just
> > a reminder to Sadhananda, from what state he was answering -
> > the state of being or the state of doing. And for my feeling
> > Sadhananda understood that very well.
>
> I guess Sadhananda already understood that well before you reminded him...

No he did not get it from what space my original posting came, because he
answered as if it was an intellectual thing.

But how does it come, that you make so many statements about other people?
Don't you have a life of your own to enjoy?

> From my vantage point you are just avoiding his question and trying to set
> the train on other rails there.
> Nothing wrong with that, I am not against some closedness.
> But it suggests your 'resistance' to certain questions.

I don't answer questions, I answer persons. And I resist certain energies,
like for example the agressive, reproachful and occupating one coming from
you. Understand me correctly: it's ok for me, if you want to express feelings
which are usually called "negative". But I join into such games of
ego-bashing only with people I like and kow (and know how much they can
take), while being known or liked is something you avoid - at least in our
exchanges here.

> You are mentioning the obvious...

Obvious? For me you come across as an inquisitor of the church.


> When the 'why' is asked, it is always good to ask the 'why-not' too,
> because that will either complete the picture or dissolve both questions as
> useless. So I was only dissolving your questions.

"always"? Always judging.
When you prepare the stake take enough wood, please.
I hate myself being only medium done.

> That brings it back to Sadhananda's original question.
>
> What space this comes from? Who cares?

That is a matter between Sadhananda an me, you asshole.
Excuse me, your holy asshole. Or is the correct address
"Your Assholiness" ?

Allways ready to learn :)


> > > Who is fighting?
> >
> > You, darling.
>
> Yes, I am.

Not totally enough for my feeling as long as you hide behind
anonymity.

> But Sadhananda asked it about *you* , and till now you have remained
> utterly closed to his simple question.
> Now you are seen setting the train on my rails..

I'm just polite to answer you. As far as I can know, you may break down
and get a cold turkey, when you don't get your daily shot of attentention.


> Why do you have such problem telling Sadhananda whether you are fighting or
> not?

a)
He is grown up and can see for himself.
b)
Fighting is not such a BIG GREAT THING for the two of us.
We prefer feeling (at least that's what I think about him, too)

> Is there a certain imago to defend there?
> Are you limited to not fighting only?
> Why did you cut your own wings on that point?

I don't fight spiritual children and I have not yet figured out,
wether you are a spiritual dwarf or a spiritual child - that's
why I want to see your face first, PeaceMaker.

> I noticed that you usually appear on this list in provocative style..

Wherever I go, I appear provocative.

> So far so good, but then who is the one missing a good fight?

The world is full of iditiots who want to fight, don't you see TV now and
then? Look at Silvio Berlusconi, who lost the latest Italian votes.
It took him 3 weeks to admit that he had lost.

The point is not wether to fight or not, but wether to be ready
to loose or not. Only then can one be total. Only without mind-control
completeness is possible. And why should I waste the last years of my
life with un-total fellowers? You tell me, FightDwarf, doit, PeaceBaby.


> Next, I also noticed that your provocations usually go to certain people on
> the list, or to the 'sannyas-scene' in general.
> So who is the one who wants to fight the sannyas-scene?
> Just today you were putting up a piece about how the 'sannyas-scene' is
> misunderstanding the older sannyasins...

That's my love, Sweety. Love comes when you have lost enough.

> And thirdly, I noticed that other than the more superficial and safe
> questions, I have not seen you respond to anything direct.
> Most of the time I see you dropping in with a nice piece of theory that is
> slightly besides the point, hence functions as a perfect armour against the
> direct question that was asked to you..

Then adjust your so called "reality" until you get my point.
Perhaps, then you might even get it, that I answer you as direct
as possible. Your questions, your tricks, your games - that's not
you as I see you. And of course, I answer to what I see and not
to want you dream about.

> But then who is the one who doesn't want to see his inner sannyas-scene
> questioned?

You mean I do? OK. Tell me what I don't see. In detail.

> Is this good enough a mirror for you?

No, not yet. You can do better.

> To me there is no such thing as a 'sannyas-scene', so how I would consider
> fighting it.

Then why do you offend it, when I write something for other Sannyasins
or abour older Sannyasins?

You may believe your own words. I believe what I see.

> But who cares about other older sannyasins being misunderstood?
> Do you care about being misunderstood?
> Your heart-felt piece about these misunderstood sannyasins, only suggests
> that you crave to be understood..

Stop this therapy-bullshit. Enough is enough.

> Sannyas is not about understanding the older sannyasins, it is all about
> understanding myself..
> These older sannyasins, just let them be.
> What do you want your fictitious 'sannyas-scene' to understand about them?
> Their past?

You want to understand yourself? OK.
Here's one point of feedback:

Obviously you are programmed to believe in individuality.

That's part of the Sannyas-programming by the way
(as well as part of the so called "normal" conditioning,
but in Sannyas-programming it is brought to it's peak
- the believe in individual development). This is a
predominant factor of your personality, of
your communication-style; one could say you are
doggedly believing into your own individuality.

We are programmed to believe in ourselves.


> And really, being understood is so dead.
> Being misunderstood is a lot more alive, it is movement, and fun too if one
> learns the art of playing with it..
>
> This demand or desire to be understood is only a subtle ego-trip.
> And you seem to assume that these older sannyasins are still on that trip..

Playing the therapist doesn't heal.


Michael

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: # 1 


Am Mittwoch, 3. Mai 2006 10:55 schrieb ganesh naik:
> Beloved Michael,
> "thinking takes time" on this i agree with you,
> "feeling happens instantaneously" on this i am sorry
> to say i disagree with you, i feel parhaps it can be
> "feeling happens Spontaneously"

Agreed.

Am Mittwoch, 3. Mai 2006 15:06 schrieb Shantam:

> [about Sadhananda]
> There is no way to know whether he got it or not, just based on the answer
> he gave...
> At the best your conclusion is an educated guess with a large margin of
> error.

You don't get the main difference between you and me.
I don't know based on somebody's answers and I don't guess.
I feel and what I know is only my feeling. And more or less
I also think or observe or smell or whatever. And I know my
thinking, observing, smelling, tasting. And I feel some things,
feelings, whatever as true and others not. Could be tomorrow
my truth is different, because yesterday it was already different
from today. But now it is like it is.

You can talk until your tounge gets sour, you will not be able
to put a single leaf of gras between me and my truth. When I'm wrong,
I'm wrong, why not? And even if I'm right, it will only be my part,
my view of the world. I am totally partial, not seldom totally wrong.
But I will never again let anybody split me.

So called objective truths are used to enslave people who don't dare
to stand alone in their own truth.

Either I try to live according to what my therapist, guru, master
or my friends are saying, or I try my own slippery way thru the dark.

And as the mind is oriented towards the outside, towards what others said,
what is said to be true, or right or beautiful, that "way" required me to go
against my own mind in the beginning. For that initial phase a Master,
Trainer, Guru, Spiritual friend is needed, even religion, even The Inner
Sadguru, The Still Small Voice, even God may be needed but then ...


My fighting friend, you think, you can influence me with WORDS?
All your words, all your arguments, all your anger and fighting
only show me, that you have lost trust into yourself, that you
are untrustworthy towards youself, are seeking for a truth in others,
outside yourself. And then you becpme angry, because you don't
find the true one there.

Your moral is a clear indication that you have lost your own
inner red line.


Kabir

For Sarlo 


Hi Sarlo,

I wrote to Shantam:

> Obviously you are programmed to believe in individuality.

and your bull's eye seem to be hit, Sarlo.

Interestingly you bring Osho quotes to support your standpoint
that individuality is important. What should that be: a support
for my statement, or an argument against it? A proof for you
individuality or for your collective programming?

Why do you bring poor Osho into this discussion?

I was writing out of my understanding - a living person,
formulating for another living person on this list (who was
for my feeling repeating the word 'individuality' as if Yahoo
pays us a dollar for every mentioning of the word in a sort of
'individuality'-promo).

So what do you want to say, Sarlo? I didn't get you, I got distracted
by Osho's words. Do you feel attacked in your individuality, and/or
do you want to start a discussion about what Osho said about it?


Well, let me try to figure it out:


1.

The first quote you brought was about the indivídual agains
the collective. I think that point is irrelevant, because
I was writing to a single person (Shantam), there was no question
of any anti-individual collective. The only relevant collective
I can think of is the pro-individality-programmed Sannyas-scene.


2.

Your second quote is more to the point: individuality is
a kind of stepping stone, an intermediate phase in the personal
development, while in the end it is found to be bogus. This
feels to be pretty in tune with what I wrote to Shantam.

Is the following what you wanted to say ?

> [Osho] is not giving us some airy-fairy conceptual doo-dah
> but trying to engage us where
> we live, or feel ourselves to be. This engagement is crucial,
> as without it
> we can get lost in nondual concepts that have no effect
> on our lives. A
> real master meets us in this way and helps us to shift whatever
> self-concept or image we have into something more fluid,
> ie in the flow of life.

Well, then I answer:

a) The airy-fairy conceptual doo-dah is in the mind of many a
Sannyasin. Every mind picks out of the lectures, what it wants.
No corrective action was and is possible.
b) Your post, your selection of Osho-quotes is an example for that.
c) A real Master (who can help us) is a living Master, not a dead one.
Because a dead one can be misused too easily by the mind for it's own
agenda.


3.

> The emphasis on individual also helps us to "remain in the world
> but not of it," so that we can sort out this impossible,
> paradoxical relationship
> between the whole and the individual and be of benefit to
> other sentient
> beings. This is expressed in the Zen way by reference to
> mountains and rivers [...]

This sounds for me as if you have invested a gigantic portion
of your life into Oshoism and Zen and made your personal Osho
plus Zen out of it.

No wonder, that you react, Sarlo, when I try to take away the
card of individuality from this house of cards.


My standpoint:

As long as we are not ready to give something up,
even a diamond turns into a shackle.

For us Sannyasins, this is:

As long as we are not ready to look critically at our
individual ideas and illusions about Osho and his work,
we are trying to swim down the river of life with 600
books tied to our feet.


Greetings
Jivano

--

Want another book? Take "Ah This!"

"On the circumference people are different [...]
But at the center, everybody is the same."

But better learn to swim without books.

Re: [LivingOsho] Indivisible "Individuals" 


Am Mittwoch, 3. Mai 2006 23:20 schrieb Paul Prakash Dennis:
> Jivano...are you, ( like me) , a 4 by 2 ???

No, rather a 4 by 4. That's my way to say, that I'm a (non-jewish)
German. Don't become tooooo jealous...

> I was interested in your angle on how much we are brainwashed into this
> illusion of separation and alienation known as individuality.

I think, we are brainwashed in every aspect of life.
Hence I'm sure, this theme will bubble up again and again.
Society is using the concept to create willing, self controlling
and easily controllable members (slaves).
And in modern spirituality many use it to justify egocentric
and evasive behaviour. Osho used it in the outer circles
to attract us and pull us away from society programing.

> I agree with you......it's vital to try and deconstruct and deprogram
> ourselves from this toxic notion of individuality as defined in western
> society as far as we can...

It's present in eastern society also, although more refined traditionally.
I think it was simply part of the passing dark age. What Alan Lowen
called "the experiment", which is over now, what Ishwara wrote about
and so on ...

Be careful: trying to deprogramm yourself is a trap, an ego-trip.
Effective deprogramming requires surrender to an able and egoless
trainer.


> Even the word individual is an oxymoron in itself......

Oxymoron ... that's a moron who got too much oxygen?
A hyperventilating moron? A marathon moron so to say?

> it literally means
> that which is indivisible yet we mindlessly use it to mean separate specks
> of dust that think they are hugely separately significant and deny the
> reality that lies outside this prison of atomisation and loneliness.
>
> Our western spiritual culture is poisoned with all this "I AM" and "WHO I
> AM" and higher self bollox which is just a hallucinatory smokescreen for
> the ego. Like trying to raise ourselves off the ground in a bucket holding
> on to the handle while in cloud cuckoo land...

Yes. Nearly everyone is on the trip to become somebody. Boring.

> So we are comdemned to walk this path within the prison of the self and not
> the buddhafield.........................

Condemnation? That old idea, which 4by2's keep so close to their heart? ;)

I think it just simply boils down to bow down - i.e. to recognize that we
just are doing and experiencing what the whole, what God wants us to do
and experience.

Scientifically speaking, that's the most simple theory, which explains
everything. Explains everything, but satisfies nearly nobody...
So the only condemnation is our own unscientific self-glorification
(which comes out of misery btw.). Self-enforcing misery. If that's not
stupid, I don't know what stupidity is. This closes the circle with
the marathon morons.


> Did you leave Frisco intact or are you still there? Do you like Rabbi
> Lerner??

I'm another Jivano. Probably the name "Jivano" was Bhagwan's way to
say "4 by 4". Hence the name is as common as stubbornness.
Jivan - life - has the root 'Jiv' - the individual soul, with emphasis on
individuality, you know. Strong individuality, stubbornness
(and also creativity).

> Shalom,

May Allah be with you. :)
Jivano

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: # 1 


Am Donnerstag, 4. Mai 2006 09:30 schrieb swamiali@...:
> Sounds like resistance, is it?
> Who can split you?
> Who did it? Osho? Bodidharma?
> The women you did grow up with?

How cool and unaffected you are!

Give Suviro what he wants,
and he will give you what he has.
Don't give Suviro what he wants,
and he will show you who he is.

> Feels you are still fighting with your inner ghosts.
> Feels not very relaxed what you write.

However bad I feel, I am with myself.
And I feel totally relaxed with the fact,
that I had the guts to surrender to my
spiritual friend, accept my errors and
allowed being corrected.

While you use all your strength to defend
being right, and stay where and what you are.

Why do you continue on that path? You are
already in the Guiness Book of Records with it.


Michael

Another read-enjoy-smile-delete meditation. 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, vikas lodha <vmlodha@...> wrote:
> what i actually do is to check ur
> mails..read it..enjoy ur opinions..smile ..and delete
> it..hahaha...

Thank you for the positive feedback. I feel encouraged...
Let's try another example, a very easy one:

"I cannot ask you to wait as a precondition. I must initiate
you first and then prolong your waiting in so many ways. [...]
I will give you a key -- of course, a false one. [...]
I cannot wait for you to be ready to be given a ready key
which can open the door this very moment. The door is ready,
the key is ready, but you are not ready." 1971 - I Am The Gate


So for the 99.9 % of his Sannyasins who were not ready
to get really initiated he did a pseudo initiation.



Enjoy deleting! Don't forget to smile!

Michael

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: # 1 


Am Freitag, 5. Mai 2006 07:22 schrieb Shantam:

> > But now it is like it is.
>
> ... for you.

As if that was different for you?


> So the question becomes: are you trying to enslave people?

No.

The more consciously one follows his Buddha, the more trust there
is and the clearer the views and insights become. Pretty soon lying
and enslaving becomes impossible to do, because it's just plain stupid.
You could as well ask: "Do you like to enslave yourself?".

Your question shows, that you don't have experience with such
a development.


> > Either I try to live according to what my therapist, guru, master
> > or my friends are saying, or I try my own slippery way thru the dark.
>
> Have you enjoyed the slipperiness of late?

Sure. Just this very moment for example, crossing an ice-covered email.


> Perhaps good for you.
> But, not necessarily THE key for others...

How would you know, what was the right key for others,
if you did not even have enough trust to use your own one?
And how would you know what was the right key for you,
if you have not yet tried to open your door with it?

You think, Osho will step down from heaven, snip with his
fingers, laugh into his beard and your inner door opens by
itself?

Before one can pick up any key, one has to drop the
hundreds of books of knowing-it-all-already he is holding
close to his heart.


> > My fighting friend, you think, you can influence me with WORDS?
> That would be sad.

Indeed.


> Only the mind can be influenced by *words*.
> Only a closed mind can be influenced by words... (perhaps a strange
> saying...)

The mind talks about the mind - what narrow-minded bullshit.
But as you write it down in this discussion, it becomes a sort
of confession, that you know very well to have been influenced
by words only. That was not Osho's fault. You have not been
ready.


> Is that what you are trying to do here? Influence people with words?
> Influence the 'sannyas-scene' with words?

Yes. The Sannyas-scene has become lazy and stuck since Osho died.


> As far as I can see, most people here are too open to be influenced by your
> or my words.

Hahaha! Good joke!


> And if my words influence you, then it is only because you let them
> influence you.
> I have nothing to do with it.

You negate the quest deep down in your heart?
Because that's the only thing which calls me to answer you anyway.


> > Your moral is a clear indication that you have lost your own
> > inner red line.
>
> Your perception... and your conclusions based on them, or your 'feeling
> about them'..

Sure. And I share them here. While you play the wise watcher on the hill.

You sit there on your hill of books, and when a man passes, who is telling
stories about China, you ask:

"Have you really been in Peking? You don't look like somebody
from Peking. Say something in Chinese, write something in Chinese, then.
Have you seen the big wall? How big is it? Only tourists go to see the big
wall. Show me a stone from the big wall. You try to cheat, you don't answer
my questions. Your resistance is thicker than the big wall."

But my feeling is, that you wouldn't ask me that many questions, that you
wouldn't move your ass around so unrestingly, if you wouldn't think about
going there yourself...

Well, Osho is not going to carry you there, I'm not, nobody is. You have
to go yourself. You have to get yourself ready. Only N0by might perhaps
help you by knitting your shoelaces together.

All your wisdom is less than a bird shit in Bejing.
Especially if the bird has the flu.

About Quoting Osho 


--- Anupam Archer wrote:

> And there are those of us who quote Osho because He is the
> most brilliant, insightful man whom we have ever known, and
> His insight is therefore extremely valuable.

Sure. And as I understand it, this is not a list of toasters,
but a list on Sannyasins. Hence I think it is very valid if not
even extremely more valuable to look at our own habbits and
thinking-patterns, too.


> What is my poor insight compared to His.

Yours, I suppose.


> I quote Him all the time. I can't help it. His words have
> become my "bible."

Are you sure, that you read and quote even those of His insights,
which go against your illusions? Do you allow me to quote from the
complete set of His lectures? Because I think, many (if not all)
of His Sannyasins filter His words and thus we created and maintain
a twisted picture about Him not only in our own mind, but also
in the Osho-Sannyas-scene at large. There are lectures of Osho,
which I have never heard in an Ashram or group or at a friends home.
Especially for example lectures about how He is working with us in
detail.

In the beginning of my Sannyas-life I had a subscription to the
audio tapes of the daily lectures, so each day I used to listen to
at least one tape of His lectures (some lectures needed two
tapes). Later I have looked deeper into those lectures of Him,
were he was speaking about developments, in which I had then happened
to have my own experiences, and I was astonished, how profound
He explained the things. But I became also aghast, what I had
"filtered out" myself earlier from His work.


> He has spoken on every subject we can imagine and
> what He has said always blows me away. I love His words,
> I love hearing them, reading them, quoting them, listening
> to other people quote them. Sometimes we use them to
> support our own positions, but mostly we come to realize that
> His words really just reflect our own positions if we had but
> the wisdom to express them.

I take this for a "Go on, quote Him, I'll be happy."

But is it also OK for you to discuss the meaning of what He said,
i.e. is it OK, to enter into a dialogue about the quotes?
I don't want to hurt your feelings without need, Archan, and your
point of view seems to be pretty much in tune with many other
members of this list. But without a dialogue there may be only
a continuation of that "personal filtering" in many of us - and
that's not what I became a Sannyasin for.

So what do you say, please?


Love
Jivano

Less is more and more is less? 


Thank you, Anupam, Sarlo and Vikas for your friendly answers
regarding my wish to quote and discuss Osho in unusual ways.

I will prepare something about how my views and understandings
about Osho and his lectures changed over time, in the hope,
that my viewpoints might be interesting for you too. But it will
take me some hours to perpare - it's like going into the Attic
of my own understanding. I find something here, something
else there and a totally irrelevant but fascinating book with some
love letters of Aunt Ann - you know how it is in an Attic.

And then -- to find the quotes again, which had fascinated or shocked
me at takes a lot of time. Even with the help of a computer it's
soo much text to look thru... I'm wondering wether Osho was
having it's own hidden agenda with these long and elaborate lectures.


At the moment I live in a very small flat, just one room, the kitchen
is not a separate room, but just a part of the other, separated by
a thin wall without door.

When I moved here, I had about a dozen of plates and half a dozen
of cups and glasses each. But my sink is very small, so after using
some of the stuff, I allways had to wash the dishes, because the sink
had become full. Over all it was practical, I allways had fresh cups
and did my dishes regularly on a natural basis. Sink full -> do dishes.

As time passed, more and more cups and plates and glasses
entered nirvana, so now I do only have one large plate, one cup
and two small glasses. When they are all dirty, the sink is not yet full.
The result is, that I feel forced to wash the dishes, and I hate that.
It's no longer natural to wash them, so I leave them where they
are and how they are. But now the feeling is: all my dishes are
allways dirty. It's frustrating.


My understanding became (I think, it's a rule of nature):

The more you have to clean, the easier it is.






Probably Osho used this rule, when he gave us soo
many lectures to put into our sinks, aeh heads?


Greetings
Jivano

Dear friends and foes,
 
Sannyas got me in the late 1980. At that time Bhagwan had worked with his disciples for
over 10Â years, but I started listening to the actual lectures then and regarded the older
lectures before 1980 as somewhat "outdated". Now I think, I was wrong, because many
years and experiences later, I found the initial lectures easier to understand and "get"
than the later ones. Somehow the lectures seem allways to "fit" the listeners, and the
very first disciples must have been really sincere seekers (it was not as easy and common
go to India and take Sannyas as it became in the 1980ies). Hence I should probably have
started reading the older books -- at least nowadays I find them very helpful to undestand
what Bhagwan was intending.

Greetings
Jivano






From I Am the Gate, Chapter #7
Chapter title: The occult mysteries of initiation
10 June 1971 pm in Bombay, India

BELOVED MASTER,
WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE INITIATED INTO THE SPIRITUAL LIFE? 
WHAT IS THE DEEPER OCCULT AND ESOTERIC SIGNIFICANCE OF INITIATION? 
WHAT SORT OF INITIATION ARE YOU GIVING TO THE NON-SANNYASINS 
AND TO THE SANNYASINS? PLEASE TELL US ABOUT THEM IN DETAIL.
 
Man exists as if in sleep. Man is asleep. Whatsoever is known as 
waking is also a sleep. Initiation means to be intimate contact 
with one who is awakened. Unless you are in intimate contact 
with one who is awakened, it is impossible to come out of your sleep, 
because the mind is capable even to dream that it is out of sleep. 
The mind can dream that now there is no more sleep, 
and in any dream you cannot know that it is a dream. 
You can only know that it was a dream when you are out of it.

.....................snipped with love .................

: [LivingOsho] The occult mysteries of initiation 


Sarlo schrieb:
> "Progress" might have been different had you read the "outdated" books
> first but really, it is perfect that you did as you did.
Thank you very much for your kind rating, Sarlo :-D

Jivano

Re: [LivingOsho] The occult mysteries of initiation 


Dear Sarmapan,

thank you for your comments. 

ganesh naik schrieb: 
dear jivano,
Before setting up the commune at pune,
bhagwan was invited far away different places in india
for giving discourses, there he found many
difficulties in saying the truth on various topics
such as sex, unconditional love, religeous fanatic
people use to bother him while giving discourses,
expecially in punjab area(i have heard one such series
with disturbunce by sikh community people recorded).
Yes, I know. But these early talks are not accessible to me.
they have not been recorded and translated as far as I know.
And - what is more important for me (in this context of a 
group of Sannyasins) - the talks have not been held to 
disciples, hence they may not be as useful to look deeper 
into and understand his teachings.



Because of this after setting up the commune
he had full liberty of saying what he want to say
freely, not according to people's capacity or not
capacity of accepting the truth. I do not agree.

A free beeing does not need any more liberty from the outside for
her/his own satisfaction. As far as Osho was concerned, he was
happy to sit in his room -- often enough (and to the anguish of the
people who took care of his body) he just did that the whole day.

His lectures were not for himself, they were for us, and only for us.



Before the ashram he was more saying on the
sutras of buddha and mahavira and many more such
scriptures.
Because he had more Indian listeners.



I do not know the year exactly when the
commune was set up, but according to me u must have
taken sannyas after the commune is set up, before the
ashram taking sannyas was a litle difficult. No need to guess about the biography and timetable, the information 
is freely available. What is more important is the conscious or
unconscious personal interpretation of that information.

Thru our interpretations we create our personal reality.



My view is that after the 80's or after the
commune set up was done, the discourses were more free
and couregeous and more rebelious. I think he was extremely challenged and challenging thru the 
time of his travels thru India in 1957-1966 as "Acharya Shree 
Rajneesh". People wanted to kill him, didn't they? Have you
ever tried to challenge the religious believes of a single Indian,
nothing to say about tenthousands of them?

I also think, that these rough encounters were something he
needed himself also.



i like older as well latest discourses too,
latest comes more closer to the current world affairs
and suitable to western deconditioning, the older is
more suitable to indian deconditioning. Before 80 the
crowd was more eastern before whome he was responding
and after 80 the crowd was more western, Thanks for your point of view (which I don't happen to share).
If his lectures became "closer to the current world affairs", for
me that just another indication that his teaching had become more 
ego-friendly.

My version of the timetable regarding his development and teaching
(my 'interpretation of reality' if you want to say so) is as follows:


As a child very unique and very rebellious. 
In that years he built up and lived his ego to the fullest.

As a youngster a sincere seeker, questioning and trying
all available spiritual groups and techniques, bringing down 
his ego -- with the last years being his "dark night of the soul".
Preparing himself.

1953 finding the diamond.

1953-1966 polishing the diamond in massive encounters and diskussions.
Preparing his teaching techniques.

1969-1974 teaching his core group, the inner circle
in close personal dialogue and contact.

1974-1981 creating the poona Ashram with the help
of the inner circle, teaching the outer, more western circle
often "through" members of the inner circle (therapists,
group leaders, center mamas etc.). Working now more and 
more with larger numbers of disciples and more indirect 
by creating situations and experiences.

1981-1985 direct confrontation of the outer circle with
it's shadow in the Oregon experiment.

1985-1990 continued to work indirectly through tapes 
and books and tried to prepare the remaining (and yet
to come) disciples for the neccessary next phase of
their development (namely Zen).


Thank you for your time and patience to read that far.

Curiously waiting for you answer.


With Love
Jivano 

The three pillar of Osho's teaching 


Good morning, everybody.

The old Bombay lectures for the inner circle show, that Osho
was doing His teaching in three main areas:

Preparation and Information of the mind - the lectures. 
Starting the Transformation - Energy work. 
Reducing old conditionings - ego reduction. 
While He was still living the outer circle of Sannyas was naturally
getting less energy work from him and only indirect work on their
ego. Later and after He died energy work stopped completely, except
for those Sannyasins perhaps, who came into contact with other
living masters or teachers with strong energy.

Nowadays only one pillar of His teaching is still intact and being used
nearly exclusively: the lectures.


Have a nice day
Jivano

Re: [LivingOsho] The three pillar of Osho's teaching 


Loke CP schrieb: 
is it what Buddha did , create some teaching , giving the direction to then moon by his finger 

Buddha shared there is buddha in each one of us ..
when the masters body has gone , the finger ended up representing the moon.

Agreed. But information is only one pillar.

Loke, you seem to be well informed about what one or several Buddhas said.
But you seem not to be transformed, because you write

"Buddha shared there is a buddha in each of us .."

When transformation starts, you will KNOW that there is a buddha in you.
And when transformation continues some years you will SEE the buddhas
conduct the life of others too - even if they are not consciously aware of it.
Hence the fact that you have to quote another Buddha to have shared that
truth means, that you have not yet found it in yourself, I suppose.

If that is so, then you have only reached the first step - you have become a student 
of the Buddhas. The second step - disciplehood - is still missing, and it's missing 
because the second pillar has not yet fallen on you. Not your fault perhaps.
You have not yet got enough Energy, not enough Shaktipath; you may have 
avoided it, you may have been (inwardly) too young for the transformation to
happen, you may have blocked it intentionally, because you wanted to live other 
things in the state of ego first - whatever the cause may be, the fact is, your 
transformation probably has not yet started.

My feeling towards you (that's why I am writing in such a direct tone):
it may start any moment. Your buddha is ready, if you are also ready,
ready to jump into an unknowable process ...

And that's not mumbo jumbo or any dark secret, what I'm doing here,
I simply observe your posting with a sensitive mind and an open heart.
In the present situation your mind would not have written to a total
stranger (and without a fighting attitude) the sentence

"Buddha shared there is a buddha in each of us .."


Your own buddha gave you the idea to remember that sentence
of Buddha and write it as an answer. So she/he is allready there
in you. Awake. And making contact with others. Namaste!

Only you didn't get it yet -- perhaps.

Jivano

Sannyas Virgins Are Overrated 


Sarlo quoted Morford:
> [...] forever pure and virginal and sex-free until she is handed over, by her
dad
> (who is actually called the "high priest" of the home), like some sort of
> sad hymenic gift, to her husband, who will receive her like the sanitized
> and overprotected and libidinously inept servant she so very much is. Praise!
>
Sarlo, some years ago you did just that: overprotect "your" list.
Protect the spiritual
virginity of this list by putting me on moderation. What I wrote, was
too rough, too
inpolite, too "negative" for the virgin Sannyas minds
-- according to your judgement, list-daddy.

Naturally I went away. Now after some years the roughness in me has somewhat
rubbed off to such an extend, that I am "tolerable" even in your list.
That is exactly
what I had foretold years ago: when we don't supress our feelings, peace
will come
slowly, slowly on its own. But now the intensity of my being shines (or
stinks?)
thru even more between the words I write, I suppose.

And on this way some unintended byproducts happened for me too: deeper
understanding
for example, or just a totally uncaused feeling of love and trust around
me, as if all things,
persons and events just swim in a sea of love and caring.

Has the moderated "peace" of the list developed in a similiar way? Has
the self-made
peace, love, joy and celebration of the Sannyas-group at large grown
into real peace and
depth? I cannot see it -- have I missed an important development going
on somewere?

For me it seems that Neo-Sannyas is going to die - through lack of
movement,
lack of upset, lack of unrest.

Virgins do not multiply. No fucking -> no fucking life.


Greetings
Jivano

Re: [LivingOsho] Sannyas Virgins Are Overrated 


Sarlo schrieb:
> I hope your challenge, in its playing out, can remain civil (if not
> necessarily grounded in respect) but grounded in honest inquiry, as opposed
> to ideological ranting.
>
Respect: more than ever towards your being.
Honest inquiry: there is nothing else to do for me,
all other things I've already tried more or less in my life.

> "A key difference between dialogue and
> an ordinary discussion is that, within the latter, people
> usually hold relatively fixed positions and argue in favor of
> their views as they try to convince others to change. At best
> this may produce agreement or compromise, but it does not
> give rise to anything creative. The purpose of dialogue is to
> reveal the incoherence of our thought. In so doing it becomes
> possible to discover or re-establish a genuine and creative
> collective consciousness. The process of dialogue is a process
> of 'awakening'. It entails a free flow of meaning among all
> the participants."
>
This sounds natural and clear - on the level of mind and linguistic
exchange.

> Or maybe you are right. I am happy in my life and, like you, in a state of
> general peace. I can't speak for others. I am very aware that my path, such
> as it is, is not for everyone. How about you?
>
I often feel angry or depressed, but I see/feel it as somerthing, which
has to do with
me and with myself only, and I don't put it on others or the world at
large or God
as I did unscounsciously or consciously during many of my earlier years
of life.
So in a way, although I feel more sensitive, I also feel more
"concentrated".

> During the most acrimonious arguing in the old sannyas-list, other lists
> were created. One was created by Melody (a non-sannyasin lover of Osho) to
> be completely free of moderation so that people could write in the way you
> apparently approve of,
No, I do not. Many people think, I am like N0by, because they recognized
me first
together with him and writing in a similiar tone as he did.

At that time, about 4 years ago or so, I just followed N0by to where he
went in the
internet and payed him back what he was giving to others so abundantly.
I felt connected
with him, and I thought he "needed" to receive some good verbal beating
himself
(because at that time, he was provocing and verbally beating others like
hell, but
ran awy as soon as he was paid back in the same coin). And of course, as
I'm also not
just a little blue flower in God's garden, a lot of encounters developed.

The net effect for me was it, that I didn't get much acknowledgment and
acceptance,
and some good beatings myself and that was good for me, I would say from
today's
perspective (and probably life has more of that gifts for me hidden
behind her back).

> As you probably understand, there is little danger that sannyasins anywhere
> have adopted an anti-sexual morality similar to the Xian one Morford talked
> about. So i have taken your point to be more about us becoming organized
> and stereotyped and locked into other moralities, like thou shalt not
> express negativity.
>
Yes, exactly.

> In fact, fwiw, Osho answered a question of mine in discourse (in
> Philosophia Perennis) about expressing anger and said that expression is
> not the best, it is only preferable to repression. Best is watching, he said.
>
I agree. Yet where to start is a function of the magnitude of repression
and suppression
already present in one's life. Most of us need the expression phase first.

"For this age catharsis is a must." OSHO


> But there is no monolithic Sannyas-scene. Because we are all individuals,
> moving in our individual ways, as Osho encourages/d us to do.
Thousand of individuals, who happen all at the same time to jump up and
shout
"Yahoo!" - that is more a "challenge" to individuality in my book.
Encouragement
by resistance, sure. But not as simple as you formulated it.

What Osho said and what he did was often totally in opposite. He said
one thing
and then created situations for us, where we would be able to experience the
opposite to what he had said. Probably because man learns and grows thru
experiences and not thru words.

For example:
He gave us 108 meditation methods to experience and then he said:
"I give you methods not because through methods you will become enlightened,
but through methods you will come to know how stupid you are. And that will
be great enlightenment."

In other word: His standpoint was identical to J. Krushnamurtis, but His
teaching went into the opposite direction, so that we may make our own
experiences.
And many of us have not understood these teaching techiques of Him.

He loved to work with and through opposites.

> People have lots of options if they don't like how i or sannyas in general
> is operating.
>
I have no problem with moderation, in fact with a certain
amount of moderation, there is no dialogue possible in an
email list, I do think.

But Sannyas in general is no longer 'operating', because it
no longer has a living Master. The second pillar of Oshos
teaching, the transformative energy is no longer strong
within the Sannyasins at large.

Sannyas has become a three-legged table with one leg
missing after Osho's death.


If I wouldn't express my standpoint in this aspect among
fellow Sannyasins, I would feel no longer to be one.


Greetings
Jivano

Re: Sannyas Virgins Are Overrated 


Yahoo did not show my answer as I wanted it
to appear, hence the answer can be seen on
the web for a limited time:

http://www.kabir.de/SannyasVirgins.html

Greetings
Ka

Re: [LivingOsho] The occult mysteries of initiation 


Dear Ganesh,

whatever you write, you are right.
Right for yourself, I hope.

I live in a different universe, Ganesh.
In my universe I learnt by accepting
to be wrong.

Learned and learnt,
just two letters apart,
but to reach one from
the other one needs to
make a full U-turn and
be patient for years.


Best wishes to you
Jivano
--
"The people are busy with purpose,
Where I am impractical and rough."

Re: [LivingOsho] Sannyas Virgins Are Overrated 


Hi Sarlo, you wrote:


Thanks for your generous sharing. My question was not answered though.
It was not about how your life is but can you allow others to have a path 
that differs significantly from yours?


No. Especially if they want me to fit into their pattern or if they use that mumbo
about "everybody has his own path" to claim theirs as being right.
Or if they use such questions to put their needles of imputation under my skin. 

There are certain rules - rules of humans and rules of nature. If those are violated
I go against the violator. And of course, it's only my conscience who is telling
me what to do - no priest, no politician decides for me what I tolerate and what 
i don't.


There has always been a lively counterpoint to that moral stricture in sannyas. 
I try to pursue a "middle path" here, so that there might be freedom to be negative 
but balanced by the understanding that there's more to life than expression.
I think of the tendency to that morality as more a new-agey thing than particular
to sannyas, so of course it comes in (the moral no-no) but can never establish itself
except here and there by mutual and somewhat conscious consent as a practical milieu.


Middle path and mediocre path are often not kept apart so easily,
and consent is only needed if an outspoken or hidden goal is there,
e.g. "let's be nice to each other". The democratic way is 
the most boring and lifeless for my taste. 

Look at lovers: not seldom do they fight before making love.

Sarlo, I think, you are a Sannyas politian.



"For this age catharsis is a must." OSHO
And we've all done some. There will always be some doubt 
among some people that "others" have not done enough.


If you think, you have done enough of anything, that's your decision.
But regarding catharsis there are objective rules to observe. If the catharsis
doesn't go deep enough, then only the mind get's some temporary relaxation.
Permanent transformation starts only with a deep enough catharsis, 
a catharsis which goes beyond the illusionary "limits" of the mind.
The energetical river of life needs to raise at least as high as the 
embankments of the mind before starting to become free. 

Have you not heard Him say that 
"water doesn't boil at 99 degrees"?



Osho also says -- i am of course picking and choosing :-) :
The whole function of therapy groups here is totally different 
than it is in the West; it has a totally different meaning and significance.
It is to create trust, it is to create a little love for yourself,
it is to create acceptance. Then I send you into meditations; 
those meditations are cathartic.


Before He started the therapy groups in Poona I
He lead or even pushed the first group of Sannyasins
into Kundalini awakening and accompanied the 
resulting catharsis processes. 
The early lectures show that pretty clearly,
they were full of comments about Mudras, 
shaking, trembling etc. - all those objective
signs for deep catharsis, for a beginning
Kundalini process.

That phase of his teaching lasted about 5 years,
then the first group of Sannyasins had had enough
cleansing and clearing to help him build Poona I.

In the early years of Poona I he still gave some advice
ragarding Kundalini phenomena, but he no longer
initiated the process.


A cathartic meditation is just throwing all the repressed energy
that is boiling in you, that won't allow you to trust. 
Dynamic, Kundalini, and others will take away much energy that hinders; 
it will be released. Slowly slowly you will become capable of trusting.
It is only because of lack of trust that methods have to be invented.
If you trust already, then there is no need for any method.
Heh heh. He said that to me. I also looked to find a classic, 
more general statement he made to Turiya about therapy being 
a beginning but we had to move on to subtler things, but i could not find it.


When did he say that to you? Before 1974 or after?

I was speaking about catharsis and not about a "catharsis meditation".
In catharsis there is no possibility to do any technique, one is swept 
away by the sheer intensity of the feeling.


Yes. As a matter of fact, he also said to me in another part
of the answer above to my question in discourse:
"Seeing the failure of Krishnamurti, I have invented methods.
I am saying essentially the same thing, because the message cannot be different. 
But I had to invent methods so that they can destroy your mistrust. 
Methods will help you to become unblocked; they will help you to become more flowing, 
they will help you to be less frozen -- they will melt you, they will warm up
the process of your being. Releasement is going to happen instantly, any moment 
it is going to happen. But if you are ready, it can happen this very moment 
-- not even a single moment more do you have to wait.
WHY ARE METHODS NEEDED WHEN RELEASEMENT CAN HAPPEN INSTANTLY, HERENOW?
Because of you, not because of me. From my side I am very much puzzled
why it is not happening to you. It should happen, why is it not happening? 
Why do you go on listening without understanding it? Why do you listen only intellectually?
Why can't you listen from the heart, from your totality? 
It is a constant wonder to me -- a miracle -- that people can go on listening every day
and can remain the same, hence the methods.
The methods are not for the releasement, you are not going to become enlightened 
through any meditation, no; nobody has ever become enlightened through any meditation,
but the meditations help. In a negative way they help; they remove the rocks 
and the stream starts flowing. They don't create the stream, they can't create it 
-- how can rocks create the stream? They have nothing to do with the nature of the stream,
but they can prevent it."


Just read between the lines.
With all the methods He sent us into a waiting loop, 
because we have not been ready.



Sannyas has become a three-legged table with one leg
missing after Osho's death.It is understandable that some /
you feel this way. No one could argue with it.
But others have a different experience too, that all three legs are still there. 
This is no less valid.

Valid? Invalid? Understandable? Others have different experiences?
And where are you?



If I wouldn't express my standpoint in this aspect among
fellow Sannyasins, I would feel no longer to be one.


Again understandable.

But might not the need to express this persistently
be like a missionary who needs always to convert 
in order to suppress his unconscious doubts? 
If you are secure in this sense of your truth, 
there is no need to express, or so goes my understanding 
of the missionary position.


The idea of missionaries, of evangelizing 
has as it's root the feeling of separation from unity. 

When we recognize, that we are one with all the other 
humans, that we share their problems as well as wonders,
share their love as well as hate, fear as well as braveness,
when we recognize that not as a concept, but as an existential truth,
then we will all be in a more joyjous position - misionary, doggy style
or standing on our heads, that doesn't matter.

But you need not fear anything, Sarlo.
I'm not trying to improve you.
It's just my way to do catharsis. :-D


Jivano 

Re: [LivingOsho] Sannyas Virgins Are Overrated 


Hi Shantam,

after skimming over your email, let me first answer to one point,
which is the central and most important one for me.

You wrote: 

In my opinion the 'table' of Osho's teaching has always been a one-legged
table with 'meditation' being the only pillar.
And this pillar is still standing as always .
Meditation as the only one 'no-leg'
And Osho explained how meditation would be more easy for many of his
sannyasins after he left the body.
Energywork, later the therapy groups, etc... has always been part of the
ongoing *roadshow*, but no more than that...
A roadshow which evolved through different 'fashions' of the moment, and was
adapted to the changing audience.

NO, NO and NO.

First one has to differentiate between meditation as a state 
and meditation as an exercise. Many Sannyasins intermix 
that. But just because both can be called "meditation" doesn't
mean they have any similiarities. Your Osho quote from memory
must have meant meditation as a state.

Second: even if one looks only at the meditation-exercises he gave, 
it's obvious that these exercises are intended to wake up the 
energy. The record about Osho leading the Dynamic contains clear hints,
that the exercise was meant to wake up the Kundalini. The lecture 
I posted here earlier contains clear statements about all three legs
of the table.

Third: you do not seem to have read much of the years before 1974.
But in these years Bhagwan laid down the fundaments for his later
work. After the cellar is done, it's natural to live mainly in the upper
levels, but that I find you always in the living room (or in the sleeping
room) does not mean, that there is no cellar. You may not have been 
there since you moved in, but the whole house is standing on it.

Fourth: an active Energy, a level of 100% life-energy (and nothing else
is it, when Kundalini "arises") is a prerequisite to psychological and
spiritual growth. Otherwise everything else (wether it's therapie, meditaion
or listening to the lectures) doesn't reach deep enough. Wether it's called 
Kundalini or Orgon or Chi, wether one speaks about it at all or not, is 
irrelevant, the higher level of energy is needed on all paths. It's a human
factor, a natural phenomenon, that's why even the bushmen in Africa
or the escimos have a word for Kundalini. 

Kunalini arising is like birth: many different people are born, but birth 
itself is pretty common. Spiritual growth is seldom, but when it happens, 
100% level of life energy is there. In all spiritual schools, and all over 
the world. But it may not be spoken about; the mind of people would only
create more illusions, if too much is explained before personal experience
happens.

Fifth: The front rows in the lectures where not there to meditate better,
but to get more Energy from the aura of the master. That we get the Energy 
was one of the reasons to hold the lectures.

That's my point of view. Perhaps later more about the other 
points of your posting, Shantam. Perhaps - I dunno.


Regards
Jivano

When the audience was still largely Indian, Osho used more elements that
appeal to Indian mind, hence things like 'energy transmission', talks about
sex, surrender, astrology and rising kundalini, ...about Kabir, Meera,....
Later when the audience became more Western the roadshow changed and became
more appealing to Western mind, hence therapy and therapy groups, and more
talks on Zen, psychology, figures like Nietzsche, etc..
So if we say Sannyas, the roadshow, then indeed energy transmissions and
presence of the living Master used to be 'ingredients' (legs if you insist)
, which are now no longer there.
Then you can say that Sannyas-the-roadshow is no longer 'operating' as it
was.
But isn't that exactly what Osho wanted , given his talks about
'churches'...?
(BTW, I have always liked how 'churches' and 'crutches' are nearly the same
word in English....)
But if we say Sannyas, the *living-it*, then it may well be 'operating'
more and 'better' then it used to when Osho was still present in the body.
It all depends on me.
The disadvantages of being physically close to the Master are now gone..
The 'comparison' in the minds of the sannyasins that could not be so
physically close, is gone with it..
Meanwhile more and more ingredients of the old roadshow are put on a low
burner or slowly phased out, inorder not to build an ugly church..
Some sannyasins have moved on to the level of 'living-it', while other
sannyasins have missed and go on clinging to the old roadshow and lament its
slow (or not so slow) demise.
Yes, we can find plenty of discourses where Osho talks about the need for a
living Master.
But let's not forget that this is always in response to a certain person who
asked the question.
It does not imply in any way that everybody needs another living Master
after Osho is gone.
And there are also discourses where Osho talks the glory and beauty of
walking alone, without a Master, even if it takes longer to 'reach' that
way...
Our 'crutches' have been taken away.
Some started walking on their own.
Others have gone in search of a new hospital..
It is perfectly good.
Shantam

8053

Re: [LivingOsho] Sannyas Virgins Are Overrated


ganesh naik schrieb:  

    My understanding of the kundlini is the energy
    arising out of through 'enery pool' (meaning of the
    word 'KUND') which is just below the neval chakra, i
    feel that is the existential source of the enery.
    Through meditation it happens that the enery arises
   high and high upward,like fire is upward,

Yes sir. But few people have enough stamina to lighten that
fire on their own. It is uncommon, but not impossible that
a lone candle lits by itself. But in the presence of another,
already burning candle (say a master or teacher) it happens
on a regular basis. That's a process of the two bio-energies
falling "in tune" with each other.
 

   Ordinarily the energy is going down through sex
    center, as the sannyas and meditation is mature, the
    enery rises upward and realeased through the top most
     chakra, called sahastrar chakra, in the exitence, that
     is the sign of no ego, no mind, ego and mind is the
     barrier in the flow of the enery, i feel the state of
     enlightenment is the point of energy rising and moving
     out of the sahastrar chakra, that is the experience to
      realize.... so naturally this experience is rare and
     beyond words, so difficult to speak, only one can
    experience it.
 

In the beginning nearly allways the initiation of this process
through another living and present person of higher energy
is needed, often body contact is a must (after all, this energy
is also part of the body). For example Osho put his finger on
the third eye.

Certain gestures may also do the job without direct body contact,
e.g. pointing with a finger at some energy chakras of the other
person. Osho camouflaged theses gestures by using a flash light,
probably because otherwise some Sannyasins might have
interpreted his gestures as "black magic" or the like.

Michael Barnett loves to use Mudra gestures, when he pulls up
the energy in the room, but he also camouflages them - e.g. is
sitting relaxed with closed eyes as if sleeping and puts his arms
lazily around his shoulders as if him is cold, until the arms form
the old Mudra "Bonding of Contentment" (one sees this Mudra
on pictures from old Egypt, the high priestesses of course
liked to use it during ceremonies).

Another Energy-rising Mudra is the Namaste-greeting, if done
by a person of higher and clearer energy.

The very fact, that there has allways been a "front seat" orde in
his lectures shows, that it was important for Osho, how close a
disciple was to him (physically/bodily).
He said: "The first rows cannot swim".
I say: only the first rows got enough water to learn it.


Jivano
--
Nothing to be learned,
everything to be experienced.
 

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8056

Re: [LivingOsho] Sannyas Missionaries Are Overrated


Sarlo schrieb:
> what am i going to do with this guy?
>

I will vote for you. :))

> Thanks, Sarlo
>

You're wellcome


Jivano
 

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8057

Re: [LivingOsho] Sannyas Virgins Are Overrated


Hi shantam,

Shantam schrieb:
    Just because elements of energy-work are present in the meditation-techniques
    does not mean that the energywork itself is very essential.

In the beginning it is. I remember Osho saying

    "Whatever you do, begin with the body"

In this case it's the connection between spirit and body,
and that's Kundalini, the Divine Life Energy within
a human body.


Energy is always there, but when a certain job needs to be done,
the intensity is essential. For existential transfomation an existential
level of Energy is needed.

 

    Meditation/watching is the essential , and what is being watched does not matter ...
    it can be energy, or it can be anything else for that purpose.

Meditation comes later.

The natural development (with overlapping steps) is:
    Energy awakening
    Catharsis and deep therapy
    Karma balancing
    Meditation.

When one tries to do catharsis, therapy or meditation without
activating the Energy first, everything remains mainly on the surface.

Sprituality with low Energy is like watching TV with
a bad antenna - no clear picture and lots of guesswork.
After a while one turns on only the loud channels, which
are seldom the best.

    I do agree that Osho did experiments in these early years,
    and most probably 'results' of these experiments led to certain evolution in his work.
    But that doesn't mean we should put extra importance
    in this early work or see it as very 'fundamental'
    I am not a 'fundament-alist'

I share my views as an invitation to look at them.
As I know that the human mind does not like to
change it's viewpoint, I do this sharing in an intense
way, using examples and quotes. And of course I
do it in dialogues, to make sure that I am understood.

Just read me, talk, discuss with me or drop it.
But, please, don't assume that anybody else
will change your mind. Either you do it, or
nobody does. Even Osho as an accepted master
gave us only the chance to learn and didn't force
us to.


For my feeling the rest of your posting consists
just of blocks against a new viewpoint - ok
it's a radical one, so your reaction is understandable.
But the problems you are having also stem from
the fact that your mind has picked the raisins from
the lecture-cake and neglected to taste the rest IMO.
That is not my fault.

I'm not going to break your habits of understanding;
why should I do your dirty work?
I'm just expressing what I feel apropriate to express
in a Sannyas-list.

After all Sannyas is about learning -
in my book.


Greetings
Ka
 

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9282

Re: Reincarnation


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Dharia" <mapremdharia@...> wrote:
>
> Beloved Friends,
>
> I've heard my Master saying that there is no reincarnation in a way
> we "think" there is.

Really? Your photo looks like as if you are in your twenties.
How old have you been, when you heard him say that?

Ka

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9287

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Reincarnation


Dharia schrieb:
> Beloved Kabir,
>
> Physically, my body was 25 when I heard him say it. I am referring to
> my Master, Nisarg.
>
Oh, Sw. Anand Nisarg, a little older than you are?

Is he teaching you? I'm just curious, to find a disciple of
a living teacher in this group.
> Osho I know only from books and audio.
>
Great, a relaxing alternative.


Greetings
Kabir

 

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Re: Aw: [LivingOsho] Re: Reincarnation 


Thanks for the information, Surendra,

ssbharti@... schrieb:
> The mystery school also has a yahoogroup which is Nisargs medium of
> communicating with his students.

Ah yeah, saw his photo there allready.

> Dharia joined LivingOsho just a month ago and has managed to be a
> reall controvercial member of this group in this short time.:-)

To be unsocial is an necc. phase, isn't it ?


Kabir

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Reincarnation 


the buff schrieb:
> You may have been away and missed the fact that her master is alive
> and kicking in the here and now... (she is not talking about Osho).
>
Got it by now, thanks. I appreciate being corrected.

Ka

Re: [LivingOsho] Reintarnation 


"I have heard he said" ... "I believe in Love"...

what kind of second hand marauders have Sannyassins become?

If I don't know, I say: "I don't know..."
or I say: "I feel like..."
or I say: "It's the most realistic or the best scientific alternative as
far as I can see..."

But to put all the responseability onto someone else, especially if that
person is allready dead and may not correct such things ...



And neither do I believe in Love nor do I advise even my dearest foe to
do so.
Regarding Love nobody should ever need to believe only.


> Now stop frightening the kids, or you might reincarnate as a Munich taxi
> driver.
>
Or much worse, he might reincarnate 5 lifes as an Osho-Sannyassin.
By that time they will have reached the spiritual flexibility of the
Opus Dei.
Well, although at a second thought ... that might be an improvement to him.


Ka

9295

Re: [LivingOsho] Reintarnation


swamiali@... schrieb:
> was occupied with the final.
>
Was boring in the second half. Yet the final result was not
THAT bad: Italian Feeling winning against French Ego.

But, I fear, in your case, the winner is the ego.

Congrats, World Champion!

And don't forget: this was not yet the final final for you.
You still have a lot of ego-fights ahead to win and win
and win and win and win and win and win and win and win.

"The firsts will be the firsts and the lasts pay the beer."
Bavarina wisdom.
 

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9300

Re: [LivingOsho] Reintarnation


swamiali@... schrieb:
    sorry i can take guys like you no more serious,
    who come here and search for my ego in the archivs.
 

It's not your ego, swami. That's the root of all ego-illusions:
to believe in ego-individuality. And your ways and excuses to
defend it are not so unique either.


Ego is destroying this planet. The spiritual ego is suffocating most of
the development otherwise possible. I am living here also, I feel,
I recognize what is happening in my environment, I am part of the
Sannyas environment. And for me the Sannyas environment is a
spritual thing, an energy connection. A group which needs to move on.

If you continue blowing up "your" spiritual ego, you are taking away
the space for me and my possible friends, you are sucking the energy
which was given to Sannyas at large.

I just take you as an example. I cannot hit all the members of this group
at once, so I just hit you to get their attention. And you jump up so beautifully,
and give me such wonderful opportunities to gnaw a little at their conscience....
With such push buttons as you carry around, Suviro... I cannot resist...

      too predictable

Then predict: what will happen to those Sannyasin, who continue to love
the comfort of their Sannyas-egos more than the discomfort of being
on the road again?

Come on, what will they think, say, do, how will they live?

develop a fixed set of believes?
fight any challenge which is against their inner "Bible of Oshoism"?
use the spiritual and therapeutical knowledge they've gained
for their own egoistic motives?
play the teacher to avoid confessing that they missed disciplehood?
pretend that Osho is not dead, so that they need not go to another
living (and hence uncomfortable) teacher?
build groups to support each other's Sannyas-prejudices and
Sannyas-conditionings?
meet in internet groups, because nobody else is speaking
their special sub-culture slang any more and they would be isolated
otherwise?

...

What else? I'm sure you can continue the list.
Just take all the things, you become angry about with me.
I bet, these are the ones you feel angry about with yourself
the most.

By the way I still remember when I first pushed your nose
into the fact, that you are predictable. Now the same thing
has become your first argument against me. Just coincidence,
or your way of saying "thanks"? ;)
 

     Michael: first question: Where is your picture?
     Second move: I'm here to frustrate you.
 

You frustrate yourself. But the problem is: it's not only yourself.
Suviro, you have become part and parcel of a strongly reactionary
environment. Those who still call themselves Sannyasins nowadays
build the core of the growing reactionary spritual movement. What
Sannyasins are believing about meditation and enlightenment has
become the central believes in spiritual circles on the whole planet.
Believes! Instead of experimenting the scene started to believe!

Sannyas-Illusions are poisoning the human soul.

If you don't flow with the river, you obstruct it.


The river of development has moved, is moving constantly.
To hold on to a situation, which is 15 years in the past, is a burden
for everyone of us. The straw you personally clutch at to defend
your little Sannyas-dream is part of the whole planet-wide Sannyas-
movement, part of an immense embankment dam build out
of millions of straws and encircling the "Osho Recreation Area" with
the famous "Osho Lake". While fresh water is needed downstream.


Ego is always against change, the mind does not like to reprogramm
itself, new situations create insecurity and fear in the controller.
That's common. Common, but not natural, especially not for such a long
time by so many people who gave their word to move on allways.
And in an area which is meant to help development and flexibility.



Kabir
 

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9303

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Reintarnation


Dharia schrieb:
Beloved Friends, I suppose to would be worthwhile to note, to yourself (to myself), whether the issue is reincarnation, or; a desire to "win an argument", to come up as a "know it all", concern with what so and so said instead of looking within, concern with another's shit instead of my own, or even mere fear of death. Yes, Dharia...
Love
Dharia
 

Who cares?

The way you argue gives me the idea, that everything of the above is just a cover-up
story, and in reality you are chewing at quite a different question, are interested about something
different. You write like a moderator of the discussion would do, not like a participant.

If I let this phantasy of mine grow a little, it turns into:

    You pretend to be interested in spiritual questions.

    But ... ?



Ka

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9317

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Reintarnation


Dharia schrieb:
> Beloved Kabir,
>
> I feel there is nothing wrong to dig deeper into why I am even
> interested in the things that I am. I find that sometimes the things
> I choose to focus on are really not what my issue is. It is true
> that I don't always see what the issue is, I find it is "easier" to
> do that with others, than myself.
>
> Could it be that you have the same thing going on?
>
No, Dharia. I had to make (perhaps) similiar decisions in my life.
But the last major of my decisions was done more than 13 years ago.
While you may be in the middle of it - perhaps.
> You told Suviro that he is angry at himself, but I have a feeling it
> is your who is angry with yourself.
Yes, this is right. And what I accept about myself helps me to see the
same in others also,
especially if they are so similar as Suviro and I are. But if I'm wrong,
Suviro is grown up
enough and knows me well enough to check that it was my projection. If
it was so.
No need for a baby sitter, thank you.
> It sounds to me that it is you
> who want to argue and I feel that anger always lies behind wanting
> to argue...I know it is so in myself. Do you feel stuck? Do you feel
> that you are not moving?
>
Come on, Baby, don't play the therapist. That's highly ridiculous.
And for an argument ... why not? But with you? ... I don't know.
My feeling is, you are on holidays here anyway. I prefer longer
lasting relationships. And more heavy partners.

Better go back, the trips you are on need personal interaction
with someone you trust (and after all you called him "my", didn't you?).
Especially in the Sannyas scene many have the same trips - that's
certainly tempting for you, but not a good environment to become
free from trips. I think, he would allow you back. If you asked, that is.

greetings
Ka
 

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Re: [LivingOsho] Reintarnation 


Sarlo schrieb:
> Ah, a man with a mission. It's a tough habit to shake.
>
Sarlo, you seem to see too much TV. Big words for big facts.
But first look at the facts. Live is not only a TV soap,
and Sannyas is not only freaky politics.

I have my feelings and my understandings. That's enough for me.
If the energies, where those feelings and insights come from, have
a mission, if the world at large develops into a certain direction,
then that is just my reality as it is yours.

I might interprete the development, which already happened, in
a wrong way, or you might do so. But just pulling that old card
from your sleeve "A man with a mission" will not make a single
sack of rice fall down in China.

I thought you were intelligent enough to differentiate between
your or my mindset and reality. Am I wrong, have you decided
to take your own mindset for granted?

>> Sannyas-Illusions are poisoning the human soul.
>>
> Jihad Now!
>
Absolutely!

But you are late in your understanding. Jihad is allready here.
Emotional energy on this planet is alreday in the rise since
the 1970ies. Since about 1990 we have an increase of
encounters in all places and in all realms (not only in politics).

If you look only your own list, it's more encounter here,
then was some years ago. And that doesn't come from
me alone. The whole planet has evolved into an encounter-
group, and the present time is just the first session with a lot
of very, very friendly fire.

Just wait, until we really freak out.

It's not my mission, it's Jihad - not a war, but God's encounter group.

By trying your well-known political tricks and cynism
to keep the situation under control, you only miss the
chance to prepare in time for the coming changes.
Like the pope.


Ka

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Dharia's rant 


I just saw, you're exchanging emails with your spiritual guide, Dharia.

I feel good with that, but 

I don't think that such communications should be made public.

Please refrain from posting your private emails to the list.
Otherwise I feel free to enter into your dialogue, too ;)


Kabir

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Reintarnation / Reinfeatheration 


hans schrieb: 
Reminds me ot this mouse elephant joke.
You all know probably which one.
Or not?

You want to tell it? Come on!
Perhaps best when giving the characters of the 
joke some names from this list? ;)


And I want to be the mouse, please.

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Dharia's rant 


Dharia schrieb: 
I make use of both lists and so far I found Osho sannyasins have much to learn from.

Sliming you need not learn and pretending to be a seeker is already at your fingertips -
or perhaps I'd better call it: at the tips of your toungue.

But certainly the Sannyasins can learn a lot from you. You are allready such a perfect 
and soft Sannyasin on the outside, and at the same time so high-flying ambitious and 
steel-hard egocentric on the inside, that one or the other Sannyasin might have the 
opportunity to learn from your example how empty and meaningless his or her usual 
Sannyas-behaviour is in reality. 

You are extremely valuable here, and I mean that exactly as I wrote it.

But give up the illusion, that you want to be loved. That's not doing you any good.
Love kills the ego.
Fame, Money, acknowledment, everything you can gather without looking
into the mirror of two loving eyes - that's what you really want, as I see you. 
And that's a lot - nearly the whole outside world. Only the space between 
the things and persons is not for you at the moment.

Of course everything as I see it. Everything is my present opinion.

I've long ago given up to answer to people according to what they say 
and play. So you need not try, but you may, of course. It's a pleasure 
to look at the perfection of your games. You are just great. All others in 
this list are far below your level of expertise. With your presence this list 
has turned into into a spiritual Wimbleton court, where we mundane 
seekers can only look with big eyes at the wonders you keep celebrating.
Every ball you get; long or short, it doesn't matter. Marvellous.

If I wouldn't have my feeling ...

But that's also something, which is not for you at the moment.
Because that feeling is the result of an arduous work...


Have a nice stay on this world, wherever you go.

Kabir 

9331

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Dharia's rant


Dharia wrote:
...
    If I was perfect, I would not be here. ...
   I find what behind the egolessness, usually hides quite an ego.
 

And behind the try to improve yourself is the same ego, only much more clever,
much more trained in hiding and pretending.

    As for Love, that is what Nisarg is telling me, ...

Isn't it handy to have your own master to quote when you like to, and need
not follow his words, when you don't like to?

    that I need to feel loved and now realizing it, I will try to be a bit more open in my relationships.

Again this game of "I'm a bad girl, but I'm on my way to try to become a good one"

Ego cannot love, Love comes from beyond. But Ego is good in trying - anything.
 

     Perhaps you could share your own challenges.
 

With whom? Name a person in this list, who is willing to
do things as described in the saying of an elder:


"If the guru says, he is six feet tall,
you bend your reality to see him as six feet tall."


Or for your system of understanding:


If Swami says, you are acting out of ego,
you say "Aaaha! That's how it feels to act out
of ego! Thank you, Swami, for showing me!"


You think, you could do that?
Ever?
Without biting your toungue?
Or crossing your fingers behind your back?
And without feeling great because of "your" work?


I'm stubborn. I just do what I'm told to do. Like you.
I'm only listening to a different voice, than you do.
And that's the difficulty. That needs to be trained.
For that training one needs a living, competent, willing
and determined swami/teacher/spiritual friend/master/guru/guide.
For nothing else. Not for your improvement, that's for sure.

And you only get the teachers you deserve, haven't they
told you that?

So, at the moment you got Sarlo for a teacher.


This Swami-Ji is a tricky bastard, an extremely polite bastard,
but a really tricky one. He is really "your" Swami -
similiar energy like you have.
 

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Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Dharia's rant 


Dharia schrieb: 
    Beloved Kabir, Do you "know" "Love" from the beyond?

Hahahahahahaha!
Oh my God!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA1

Oh Jesus! Dharia! Donner und Dharia!


Hohohoho!

Aaaah!


Do You really think, that an answer in an email will satisfy you?

That an answer from me will be an answer to you?

Or do you just believe,
that I write about something,
ABOUT WHICH I HAVE NO EXPERIENCE?

Both alternatives are terrible.
The first means, that you are satisfied with words.
While the second says, that you cannot feel and 
cannot trust another person.
The second is a little better, less painful perhaps.
So just assume, that I'm a big mouthed liar
(some friends on the list may help you with this).
But on my side of the communication, there
is not even a single millimeter room to answer
anything else to you but what I answer here.

My answer to your question:

Yes, I do.




Now, what do you do now?
6 Letters, two spaces, one comma, one fullstop
on the screen of your computer.
Not even a single picture,
No smell, no sound.,
no touch, no breathing.


Now, what?
So what?
So?
?
.

The Stinker In The Temple 


jayen466 schrieb: 
    Well, it was kind of a stupid question. Everyone knows "love from the beyond", 
    nobody would be alive without it. 

Everyone knows" is not true and to be alive doesn't mean to "know" it.

Everyone knows how a tiger looks like. But to "know" it by taking a ride 
on its back is something totally different...

Jayen you try to play my statement down. But while you do that, you use 
arguments, that show clearly, that you know exactly about what I wrote.

     "God is nearer to us than our jugular vein." (Qur'an 50:16)
     "The animating spirit that gives life to our soul is a divine breath ..." (Ibn Arabi)

Perfect quotes. Too perfect. You know also. But you don't share.
I share with a stick in my hand (and sometimes behind my back),
but I share. You prefer to cash in on everybody's ignorance.


Old Sannyasins, Sannyas therapists, group leaders and Sannyas "officials" don't share 
all their wisdom. They play the same game as Osho did. Those who have enough 
determination to uncover the open secret for themselves, might go ahead or might 
leave the Ashrams, or are even thrown out of the communities. No problem -
they have found the keys - inspite of all the meditations.

But the others, who are still stumbling around, are just covered up with more incomplete
truths, told ready made explanations, are put into more and more mist or are even given
meditations, which will make them supress the tiger's energy more than before and draw
them back into their so called "normal" i.e. tigerless state of Sannyas.

The result is an enormuous pressure cocker. Those, who have luck or enough energy
to recognize the games going on, escape now and then. But the others are just kept
enslaved in their invisible chains of not being told the complete truth. And they
celebrate their enslavery, don't they?

Who would expect such a strategy. You go to the dentist, and if you are hesitant of
having your teeth drilled (and who is not), you are not informed about the dangers to 
your health, but are given cakes and sweets and being told that Neo-Dentists don't
need drills. After all the sweets have done their job, you will change your mind
about drilling. If you have any teeth left by that time, that is.

The elder Sannyasins themselves got heaviest encounters - the newcomers don't need 
that any longer. Don't wake up sleeping Sannyasins, hmm? The elders received detailled 
lectures about the tiger's energy - they even got a lot of ridsing lessons - the latecomers 
are being told "everybody has it, nobody would be alive without it". And of course that
nearly "everybody has it blocked" is better not told. Like you, Jayen, didn't.


Osho said "The whole of humanity is enslaved, and enslaved by such beautiful names: 
God, religion, morality, truth, motherland, father, mother, family. In all these good names 
are hidden the very poisonous seeds of your slavery."

I add the names "Osho" and "Jayen" to this list of good names. Wellcome.
And enjoy: your name is being told in the same sentence as Osho's.


Osho again: "Religion gives freedom because religion gives consciousness."

The above is a lie. Religion doesn't give consciousness. The energy of the
tiger is needed to make consciousness grow. But it's not easy, it's not
a free ride. People riding on tigers may have lost an eye or have a broken arm,
may have no money, but they can no longer be exploited and enslaved. 
The eye of the tiger wouldn't allow that.
The eye of the tiger is pure consciousness.


Let's have a final look at your example with the feet.

     To compare, brag or ask another whether "they know it" 
     is the height of ignorance. Like someone unaware of his feet 
     stumbling around in a crowd, holding up a placard with a badly made 
     drawing of feet, claiming that this drawing makes them a superior walker, 
     and trying to persuade everyone that they should urgently start their own drawing ...

What you are saying is essentially: 
Dharia is at the height of her ignorance, running around, seeking and making drawings 
about something which is allready there - in her (under her navel so to say). And she
is to greedy gathering drawings about feet to look down at her own. Too greedy
to get loved to recognize that this is already the case. Too greedy to get Love from
beyond, to recognize the love from the people around her. She's just a spoiled child.

Why not tell her? Why not tell what discipline and endurance is needed?
Then she can go and live a normal life or she could decide to go on anyway.
It's her choice, not yours. You are not her Master.

But of course that would stop the Osho industry, spoil the esotheric market.
And by saying the truth now, Jayen, you would indirectly confess to have lied
for all the years before. Lied by not telling 100% of the truth. Or telling some
truths and then a lie, then some more truths and another lie... etc... Clever.
But for me it stinks.


Kabir

Re: [LivingOsho] Reintarnation 


Sarlo schrieb:
> A
> ... Substituting a slogan or cutesy phrase, as i did, for long
> impassioned dialog, will not make a single sack of rice fall down in China.
> But it has not been demonstrated that the impassioned dialog will either.
> So it goes.
>
No! Seeing is acting. And an open dialogue may produce insights.
Not in China, of course. But in me for example.


Ka

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: The Stinker In The Temple 


I'm convinced - at least for now.
Jayen and Osho have the better technique.
Truth is what works, and truth doesn't.

It doesn't matter to you wether something is true or not, 
and you are not really interested to discover something for
yourself. What matters to you is how ego-friendly you are addressed,
and how well everything fits into your conditioning.

That's a world!
But that I don't fit, 
is not my illness.
So help me God.

Kabir




Dharia schrieb: 

    Beloved Kabir, Once I told another sannyasin, who is also my partner
   to "wake up" on the school site. And I received a huge zen stick from Nisarg,
    saying that I am not awake myself, I can't say those things to other disciples. 
    The same thing with you, you pretend to be some kind of Rinzai, beating people around, 
    all the time being asleep yourself. Perhaps it is also very good to look at 
    what your own ego is doing?
    Love
    Dharia

Re: The Stinker In The Temple 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "jayen466" <jayen466@...> wrote:
> > [in response to:] You prefer to cash in on everybody's ignorance.
> Assumptions.

No, just some friendly (try of) insults.


> As you very well know, it is not a question of saying it,
> but a question of when and how to say it so it will be
> heard (by someone).
> And you can never say it all. You can say half today,
> and the other half tomorrow. Or you can leave it to
> someone else who understands
> it to say the other half.

Probably the only way to describe water is to
(multiple choice possible depending on personal
preferences):

* to write a book about it
* give Satsang about the Art of Drinking
* throw you into it
* give you a glass of it
* bring you into a desert and let you find it on your own
* piss at your trowsers
* let you pay 100 Euros per liter for it
* drown yourself in it and forget the questions


> "Things that seem opposed may in reality be working together." Rumi

Nice guy. But do you know any things, that don't work together?
I mean except man and woman of course ;)


Well, Sufi. Strong stuff in their meditations.
Shah must be pretty old by now. Even older than me.


La ilaha il Allah

Kabir

Re: The Stinker In The Temple 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Dharia" <mapremdharia@...> wrote:
>
> Beloved Kabir,
>
> you pretend to be some kind of Rinzai, beating people around,
> all the time being asleep yourself. Perhaps it is also very
> good to look at what your own
> ego is doing?
>
> Love
> Dharia

My astral status is Sensei.
Sensei in training, to be correct.
And, ok, I'll give up pretending.
Tomorrow.

Do you think, I could make my ego
do the things, I don't like to do myself?
I'm watching and watching, but it's only
picking it's nose (which happens to be my
nose also - it doesn't even has a nose of
it's own to pick!) and not doing anything.
Are you sure, that looking at it is enough?
How do you look, seducing? Stern? Begging?
I mean: to look stern I could manage ... but ...

Perhaps it might start doing the tax-reports
when I just go to bed? I'll give it a try.

Thank you and good night.

Kabir

The Elefant On The Table 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "hans" wrote:

> Okay.
> You're the mouse.


I concentrate and prepare for the role.

Tone!
Camera!
Action!

The camera zoomes to the head of the mouse.

Zhe eye of zhe mouze iz pure conzciouznezz...
Unmoving like a dark winternight with little
zparkz in the black zky...

From far away acrozz zhe river zome muzic and
laughter travelz over zhe dark waterz...

Zhen it iz zilent again. Only the footztepz
of the mouze make the bridge tremble ...


CUT! CUT! WHERE IS THE ELEPHANT?

Elephantz are on ztrike today, zir!
But I can do a double roll, if you pleaze.

For the same salary?

50% exztra.

30

40

35 is my last offer!

OK.

MASK!
And, camera, you shoot from below!

From below a mouse?

From below the elefant!
Someone put this elefant on a table, PLEASE!

Now, are we ready?

Tone!
Camera!
Action!
...

..............................

In the evening:

That was a great shoot today!
You where a wonderful elefant!

Believe it or not, az mouze
I zee myzelf more authentic.

Come on! Elefants also like cheese!

Really? Have never zeen it zhat way...

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: The Stinker In The Temple 


Dharia schrieb:
> Beloved Kabir,
>
> Why would you want to be somebody other than yourself?
> And looking is not watching.
>
> Love
> Dharia
>
>
Why do you spoil your life in an internet list and don't go and meet
people in person? And which idiots have told you, that humans can
be changed through therapeutic hogwash? Or that Love can be achieved
by writing the word often enough?

The Shaking on the Meditation Chair 


swamiali@... wrote to Ma Dharia: 
     Now you see what can happen to one,
     if one does the "work".
     Kabir/Jivano/Michael is a good example.
     Or do you also want to become an elephant
     in a china shop like him?

While Ali is the counter-example. The choice is yours.
Perhaps a third path?


     Why not drop all this spiritual bullshit,
     get married, make children ?

Just a good fuck is enough. Perhaps all your spiritual delay stems
only from the fact, that your present partner is not giving you enough
of his holy energy? Osho gave his female Sannyasins the advice to 
chose those Swamis with the clear eyes. Really, he did say so.

Zhe eye of zhe mouze iz pure conziouznezz.

     Maybe it was the last warning,
     God has send you.

O no, God is a compassionate sister. That was neither
the last message nor the last or only man she sent into 
your direction. And it was not a warning either. 
I'm a gift, a blessing of God. Believe it or not.


Regarding men, juzt truzt the anzient wizdom of your body.

And when in zuch encounterz 
your zenzez are zhaken like leavez,
let everyzhing happen. And enjoy.

Make zure not to deztruct a body or part of;
bedz, tablez and meditation chairz can be bought again.
Uze condomz, you never know, perhapz your
old partner waz not zhat bad on zecond zhought.

:)



This ancient Sannyas-Music in the Pines was brought to you by:

Kabir

and

zhe mouze wizh zhe irreziztable dark and voluminouz voice.

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: The Stinker In The Temple 


Dharia schrieb: 
     Beloved Kabir, 

Dearest Dharia!

     Nisarg talks to us on the same type of yahoo group. 

What is this, you talk to me about Nisarg? What do you want, a nice spiritual
threesome? Just open your heart a little more, don't be a miser, get at least 7
teachers, that will increase your freedom by a factor of 7 and more. 
Your freedom to go astray resp. directly into the next asylum.

    Although I am not much of an "exemplary disciple", 

On the contrary, I fear. On the contrary. The others are only more 
experienced in hiding their state.

I know that the change depends on my willingness to transform, 
no one can "change" me, it is my own willingness to do the work and grow.

2% right, theoretically. The missing 98% contain the still missing insight,
that you yourself are the main error- and obstruction-factor in your life,
hence you cannot be allowed to controll the process. And then the
willingness to let the teacher do the work on you is also completely missing..

And it's not you, who will grow, either. For the person, the path is
comparable to a voluntary, painfully slow psychological suicide.
over a period of 20 years under optimal circumstances. Not counting
the preparatory time as an Osho-Sannyasin, mind you.

You think, your 2 % determination will be enough fuel for a path of twenty
years and more? Because once the path started, there is no way back.
The awakening of the cat cannot be made undone by the mice. <zigh>
My path started 13 years ago, which was 12 years after taking Sannyas.
Hence I say, I'm now thirteen years old. I don't even need to say, that
I "know by own experience" about what I am talking. It hangs around me
like an old unwashed cloak, everybody can smell it.

A very old saying (I think, it's from the Sufi tradition) goes like this:

"The Master has as much compassion for the ego,
as the blacksmith has for the iron in the fire."

and - I think Sw. Satyananda (Andres Elten), an old
Sannyasin, wrote this:

"Who has never played with the idea of suicide,
whose path has not yet begun."


So better give up now and go home, before it's too late.
Don't be stupid.

Thanks for your attention.
Kabir

--

The eye of the hobo is raw spirit - hicks.
 

Re: [LivingOsho] The Shaking on the Meditation Chair 


swamiali@... schrieb:
> be aware! after the orgy comes the depression . . .
>

Waz zhat zhe reazon for you, to drop zhe orgiez?
Or iz it juzt your excuze, becauze the orgiez dropped you?


The Mouze which will become a Butterfly

Re: Motherhood ( was Re: [LivingOsho] Re: The Stinker In The Temple) 


Anupam Archer schrieb: 
But it is exactly as Osho says, "women use power trips, not love in raising
children," which is why so many women emasculate their sons. 

Yes, and men misuse children and women. We need to be more specific in our analysis,
in my opinion that means we need to look at the situations in a more personal way.
Best way, probably, is it to look at oneself, and for that such books might be a help
and an advice from a teacher even a better help. If the teacher is a living one 
and the advice is given personally, that is. Osho had many different disciples, and the 
disciples were in a lot of different situations, thus his lectures are full of examples 
for all kind of advices. When we pick up quotes from Osho's lectures, there is a high 
probability, that the personal interests, filters and conditioning chose exactly the 
wrong advice for the situation at hand.

With "wrong" I mean in this context: something which is in tune with the neurosises 
of the persons involved.

I have heard Osho many times encouraging his female sannyasins to wait for motherhood 
until they have a least some tiny glimpse of what unconditional love is.

I know a very loving, aware, probably enlightened woman, engaged in what looks 
like to be a satisfying marriage and with great talent and love towards children, 
who said, it would not be the right moment for her to give birth to a child.

No condition, no saying from any Master - dead or alive -
can ever replace the wisdom of one's own being. 
For motherhood or against, as well as for fatherhood or against.
And in any other aspects of life also.
And the wisdom of the being might not allways be the same as the 
feelings of the body and are very often not what our thoughts 
(or other persons) say. And of course, one being may decide
totally different from other beings.

We have the freedom and the response-ability to create life
- even our own. ;)

Greetings
Kabir

--

The only job of a master is it, to bring you 
in contact with your own Inner Master.

The master is not there to teach right or wrong,
but to translate and amplify the voice of your
Inner Master, so that you can hear it load and clear.
Just to train you. Late in the training the Guru
may even give you orders against the voice of 
your own Inner Master, to help you to rely only on 
your own being and become independent from your 
outer guide.

Your Inner Master will then bring you into balance, will
bring you to "yourself", step by step, moment by moment.



What is so difficult about it? What is the problem
with this straight and simple development?

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Motherhood and the deliverance of wo/menkind 


Sarlo wrote:
> At 09:31 AM 7/13/06, Hans wrote:
> Mostly what I did was sharing about my life.
> ...
Hi Sarlo!

What was that? A private communication to which you answered
into the group? 'Cause I don't find such a post from Hans among the
goup postings.

Kabir

From Motherhood to Pizzahood and back 




      Algerian Malika, who is recovering from an illness, said Zidane, 34, 
      was simply protecting her honour when he butted Materazzi in Sunday's final.
   
      She told friends: "I am utterly disgusted by what I have heard. 
      I praise my son for defending his family's honour.

      "No one should be subjected to such foul insults on or off the football pitch 
       and I don't care if it was a World Cup Final.

       "I have nothing but contempt for Materazzi and, 
        if what he said is true, then I want his balls on a platter.


And Bush is protecting the honor of the USA in Iraq,
Bin Laden protecting the honor of the Muslim all over the world,
Israel protecting the honor of it's soldiers,
Sannyasins the honor of their Master (also all over the world).
...

I doubt that we would have less wars, if more women had a say
in politics. While having these great Sannyas "Ma"s has not increased 
spirituality (compared to - say - Sufism), but rather increased the talk.
As can be seen in all esotheric email list.

Let's see, who responds to this ;)


Kabir

--

No Pizza today. No kiss for Mama.

Re: [LivingOsho] Interpreted 


Hi Tanmayo, you wrote:

   However truthful you share with a mind, mind will
   always interpret. Is it difficult to relax in the
   truth that you are not understood by others?

First of all: yes, it is difficult. But that's also the reason, why I'm here -
to experience these difficulties, I think. Although I may hope 
otherwise, but that's often (if not allways) the final result.

But then, we are not mind alone. And even if we look only 
at the mind, this mind is not totally fixed. Mind may look
like absolutely stubborn, arrogant and unmovable in its prejudices 
- especially the Sannyas-mind is programmed with onethousandandone
fully automated defenses, but it can still manage to change itself
now and then. Difficult but not impossible. I would not feel good,
if I didn't do my best to support these impossible breakfast miracles.
I just had one - a breakfast. So at the moment I can relax a little ;)

Miracles happen also after breakfast.

But of course the main thing is: it's difficult. But it's worthwhile.
When I follow my impulses and my feelings what is right for me to do,
I often head directly or indirectly for trouble and frustration and even pain.
But in the long run I grow more trust into myself - and that's invaluable.

Trust into yourself 

- my God, even the trust in God falls short of it.

I thought about writing it "my Self", or "my self"
but "myself" is more exact. They are not two.

So why not talk with the mind and to the mind?

And, funny enough, with the growing trust into myself
came another guest over the years. 
Suddenly there is love behind my shoulders,
like a cat, who sneaks silently up from behind,
starts purring and rubs its head on my back nonchalantly.



It's worth it. 
What a hell of a path, 
but it's worth everything.

Kabir

Re: [LivingOsho] Interpreted 


Tanmayo schrieb:
> What do you mean with a changeing mind? Changeing
> opinions, ideas etc?
>

First of all: I am speaking about humans with conflicts; after all this
is a spiritual environment. I'm not speaking about a totally free mind
in all of us, otherwise the whole list would not exist in the form it does.

In that context I meant the fixed assumptions/conditionings.
Everything which was stored with strong emotional loading
(anything which we consider at least "important" for our comfort).
For example a burned-in experience like "I am not lovable.".


Please differentiate between a normal "free" and flexible mind and a fixed
mindset with all kinds of "burned-in" experiences,conditioning,morale etc.
We could also call the former an "open mind" and the latter a (partially)
"closed mind". For that second meaning the term "mind" is used in the
spiritual context, as far as I know, and that was how I used it.

> I don't see these as miracles, in fact i sense the joy
> of the mind is exactly to change according to new
> situations and challenges coming up.

For a closed mind (in the areas, where it is "closed") adding new stuff is
only possible in an additive way and within the realm of what the mind
accepted
as being "variable". With the above example that would go like "Walter says
he loves me, hence Walter is a liar". Because "Walter loves me" would
contradict "I am not lovable". That is: the observation that Walter says he
loves me does not invalidate the older structures only if it is put into
the
context of the older structures in such a way and with such attributes,
that there will be as few conflicts as possible. If anything comes along,
which creates too much and momentarily unsolvable conflicts, the first
reaction is: "that's not true" - i.e. the input is discarded.

> It always tries
> to support the ego even if it means going against
> itself.
>

Mind and ego are not two things, ego is just that subset of the mind,
which is connected with "me", e.g. all inner sentences starting with "I
am ....",
"I need ...", "I cannot ..." etc.

> And if you managed to change somebodys mind, wouldn't
> that be just until the next change? Or do you think
> the mind can change towards truth and stay there?
>
Mind is an abstraction from reality, or to be exact an
abstraction/compression
plus database of our real-time input from our senses. Mind and truth is
like picture and sunset. Can a picture change towards a sunset?
And if it could, would the birds obey your mind-change and go to sleep,
when your mind decided to switch from morning to sunset?

The best the mind can do, is to resolve, that is, give up it's fixedness
and becomes fluid, flexible and open for any changes. That is, the mind
and it's ego would have to surrender to reality.

> Truth is not even able to change your own mind?
>
Sure it is. But who said, it would be painless and comfortable?
Or happen within a weekend?

> I guess in the end it turns out to be the
> same - trusting myself=trusting god.
>
You "guess" means what? That you don't trust?

Ruthless, if not brutal honesty with myself was neccessary for me.
And then even with others also, because I recocknized, that I could
not be true to myself while untrue to others.

> But to talk with expectations of being
> understood will take you upon a different road.
>
That's the problem with expectations, isn't it?
The urge to be understood is very old in me.
I think, I had misused my talents in that aspect.


Ka

back

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Motherhood and the deliverance of wo/menkind 


Sarlo schrieb:
> I was replying to post 9422, which is at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/LivingOsho/message/9422
>
I see, thank you.
Ka

Hans 


Hi Hans,

--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "hans" wrote:
> Adding in general this: I have been hanging around in n0by's
> group for three years now. Enjoying the freedom of speech.
> AND suffering all the nonsense that belongs to it.
>
> Mostly what I did was sharing about my life.
> Sharing about what I learned.
> And especially trying to seduce people to go back,
> in comunication, to the roots of why we sit here behind
> our keyboards so many hours. Starting with the basic,
> direct experience of and in the here and now.
>
> No one is willing or able to do this.

Reading your post astonished me bigly, because I experienced
you differently. Obviously we humans are all living in totally
different universes of seeing the things - especially
seeing ourselves - in unimaginable different ways. I even
tend to say, it's extremely seldom, if we happen to communicate
successfully once in a while. in Erhard Seminar Training (the
infamous EST - no-piss training) I learnt that the essence of
communication is intention. So we don't want to communicate
with each other, isn't it? N0by's Fuck-You! group is a great
environment to experience exactly that. It took you three years
to recognize it, how long will you need to get it, that _you_
decided to "try" it _there_ ? And thus that you wanted to experience
and _feel_ this lack of communication.

Well, that's how it is, obviously.

My experience with you in the N0by group was it, that whenever I
tried to bring a discussion into deeper waters (with you or with
others), you came up with a picture or a quote from the internet,
made a joke about it etc. You could not be "caught by the sleeve",
"escaped" any deeper or more direct communication, as I call it.
I got the idea, you sit there on your boat, smoke a good Mary Jane,
be happy, make fun of everybody coming along and believe to have
learned everything you ever need to know long ago in some workshops
with Shapiro. And you have been our internet search engine, have
been the one who allways ansered with a link, a picture, a quote from
the net. Did you forget that?

And now, some time later, I see you are presenting yourself even
more directly than some years ago, as somebody "with the basic,
direct experience of and in the here and now". And you are no longer
satisfied to just share your private life (which you did at that
time), but also "try to seduce people to go back in comunication"
(which is for my taste a copy of the crap N0by is writing in his
list).

Nobody is ready to communicate the way I want it and about the
themes I want (e.g. my life and the internet). I simply want to
share, what I have "learnt" from great Masters, and when I tell
something about my mundane life, no single ass is interested
adequately.


> (Not n0by, not Michael Kabir, not not not not)

You forgot to mention Hans GuckInDieLuften.


> It is everywhere the same: exchange of opinions,
> verbal and textual shouting, blaming, tricking, quoting
> the biggest MASTERS, DRUNK OR NOT DRUNK, etcetera.

Depends on where you point your antenna.


> I must admit, that there is a certain satisfaction in
> writing like the above, but, and I am well aware of this,
> it is basicly painfull, pain speaking to pain.

FINALLY! Oh great, at least a single crack in your clown-mask!
That I may experience such a thing! I'm happy about it for you.
Really.


> In my case it is a drive, a refusal to give up,
> an urge to catch in words what it is all about.
> And it is all about ?????.
> What is this all about?

It's all about you, but of course,
that's so in my universe.
After the cracks got wider
there is more space over here.


> Hug,
> hans

Sledgehammer,
michael

Re: [LivingOsho] Interpreted 


Tanmayo schrieb:
>>> I guess in the end it turns out to be the
>>> same - trusting myself=trusting god.
>>>
>> You "guess" means what? That you don't trust?
>>
> 'i guess' was related to god. I'm not sure i know god.
>

But you know yourself?

> Talking with my friend the
> other day, i felt and saw how she resisted against my
> words to her about her love-problem. Which kept me
> from holding myself back and i ended up patting her
> suffering. It was ok, but not totally, and i feel the
> day will soon come where i cannot do this kind of
> going below myself anymore.
>
I understand and know myself what you mean. I know no easy solution,
I think now, it's a matter of love, what not to say or when to say it. But
before love developed, I had to put my priority on truth.


> I don't know how you have used and misused your
> talents, but i have sensed lately how keen we are to
> justify our nature when it comes up strong. Its
> nature, however strong, and not consciousness.
> Maybe im stern, but my impatience is growing.
>
Nature is conciousness for me.


Ka

Partly cloudy, wind is northeast to east , strength 2 


The Bhudgas of Jayen and Hans are having fun on 
a LAN party, while waiting for the Devas to come
and join the party (or join and come or whatever -
nobody ever knows what Devas may be up to, including
themselves).

Jayen:
"On the other hand, if there is a sufficient degree
 of devotion over a sufficient period of time, 
this enables the arising of subtle organs 
which open up non-sensory perceptions, 
adding an understanding of things' inner nature 
to normal sensory perception. Now did this create 
a blue screen on your mind, or not?"

Hans (who is running an Apple OS X, which is immune to
thought-viruses for MS PCs) is hiding his grin, greps
Jayen by his spritual teacher ego software and replies innocently:

Jayen is updating his SVT (Spiritual Virus Toolkit) to Version 4.4 and responds with a handcrafted email plus
a new Version of BlowMind-ResidentEvil:

"What I was trying to describe in the previous 
post was the perception of additional layers or dimensions 
of the world around us, altering the quality 
of our experience of life. See attached TRUTH.TXT.zip"

Hans makes a pot of the Green Giant tea he is fond of, opens the Zipfile and reads:

"This difference between imagination and perception 
is crucial. It is one reason why often nothing is said 
about what these subtle organs are like, since anything 
definite that is said is just used to feed imagination, 
creating imaginary progress and aborting 
any real progress that might have been."

At which Hans is scratchind his subtle organs nd wondering why the Devas are that late.

"Having said that, many people will have experienced 
situations that involved some sort of non-sensory perception 
– be it a feeling of oneness with a beloved, knowing just 
what someone would say before they said it, seeing beauty 
in a sun-drenched garden, or knowing intuitively, 
with absolute certainty, how to deal with a dangerous, 
perhaps life-threatening, situation. "

That reminds Hans of Gurdjieff and he puts the tea pot on "All And Everything"
Volume III to save the table in his houseboat the thermal stress of the hot beloved
Green Giant. He takes a sip, slips into oneness with the beloved and reads on:

Below, for your reference, an anonymous sufi text 
that illustrates some of these processes.

Best wishes
Jayen

This "anonymous" would have got Hans, if Jayen had given an Internet Link to the
SufiScript Virus, where Jayen himself got infected some time ago.
But as Jayen had included the text directly into the email, Hans could simply
read and discard it as making too much sense for an unsensory perception.

BOING!



"Game is 4:3 for Hans.
Next round, gentlemen, please load your minds
and take up positions. Could I have another cup of
coffee please, Premissima Darling? Your backscratch
has made me sooooo sleepy..."

Kabir

 

back

9463

Re: [LivingOsho] seeking a copy of this:


gondolf1 schrieb:
"According to the booklet published by the commune at Rajneeshpuram, Rajneeshee worship is "meditation and the meditative attitude in work and play; the message of Rajneeshism was contained in the lectures of the guru; and Rajneeshee education was a lifelong process of learning self-awareness" (Fitzgerald, 1986a: 91). The booklet also gave the text of chants and the protocol for rituals concerning marriage and death."
Anybody have a copy of this booklet or a link where it can be seen?

First the bad message:

I don't have what you want.


Then the good one:

The book must be false from top to toe anyway.
Rajneesh himself warned against Isms every day
and his message was contained in his presence
(in his aura so to say) and not in his lectures.

So this booklet is just historic proof for his Oregon teaching
setup in which he was giving his disciples a chance to experience
the opposite of his teachings. He was good at working with opposites.

Kabir


 

back

9465

Re: [LivingOsho] Interpreted


Tanmayo schrieb:

                            But you know yourself?

             Less and less. My sannyas is one of decreasing,
             disappearing, dissolving.

I was not talking about sannyas, this connection between knowing yourself
and sannyas is yours. And sannyas seems to be connected with a negative
attitude in you. But this is also yours.

                Nature is conciousness for me.

 

               Nah, good. So let it have you.

This sounds like a low level of respect for point of
views, which are different from yours, and a low level of
flexibility and ability to listen to others. To say it politely.

The consequence is your mental closedness and inability
to learn (except learn through pain).

                                              love, tao
 

Your "love" is a lie, and as "tao" is another word for the
spirit of nature and at the same time your name (accepted
by you), your posting proves, that you are fighting your
own spirit.

Enjoy your suffering, it is self-created.


Kabir
 

back

9468

Re: [LivingOsho] Interpreted


Thank you for your answer, tao.

The more you explain the more you'r in vain.

<end of email> :))

Ka

back
 

Re: [LivingOsho] Interpreted 


Shantam schrieb: 
    So...?

What? 

Re: [LivingOsho] Interpreted 


Tanmayo schrieb: 
          You exclude yourself from all dialog - stating,
          diagnosing, explaining, without knowing anything. 

No need to know.
That's my way of knowing.
And I don't exclude myself.
I'm here. If you can't feel me,
it's your problem. 
I'm just excluding myself from your trips.


    I wonder what is your aim here?

I don't wonder, that you wonder.

Egos have aims. 
Humans have feelings, impulses, thoughts, hormones, lifes, etc.


You are simply getting angry, when I'm using female tricks
like acting irrationally, reacting to feelings instead of words etc.
And obviously you want to know my "aim" so that you can
"understand" and control me. 


I LOVE IT!

And you argue, although it's totally transparent that you get angry!

WONDERFUL!

And the start of it was: when I behave like a daddy, you get uneasy.
You are not aware what your subconscious is doing to you.
I confess, that it's unfair to your female ego, what I'm doing and
that I'm even feeling good with it. but life is not allways fair, is it?



greez

Ka 

mama! 


mama?

Mama?

MAMA???(!)

MAMA !!!!

MAMA ! ! ! ! !


And yours is? You didn't answer that one. 
IMAGINE! You ask a question and I don't answer the way,
you can understand it! Tssst, tssst, tssst. How unsocial!
u n s o c i a l !



Tao, you simply didn't get it. 
The information is all over the place,
and you just go "tilt".


Don't give up. I started to get it that I was the fault at the age
of 48. So you compared with me (I don't mean that to be
an insult) you still have ample time to play around with your 
self-determination, Honey. Buy some shoes, break some hearts,
or whatever you may like. Let the Buddha take care about herself.

If you are very logic-centered, perhaps the book
"Tertium Organum" might enjoy you - I liked it. It doesn't
help, of course, but it's a nice read for thinkers.

And just remember: I'm answering you! No problem.
I just don't feel like stuffing your mind or helping you to grow 
more important and the like. Because in my book, _that_ would 
be really unsocial.

There is no need to write to me anyway. I don't feel bad,
should you feel like ignoring me. No problem, no fuss.

Just remember, if you talk with me:
this T-shirt of yours will not work - 
you know the one:

http://www.was-niemals-stirbt.de/bild/neu/selbstbewusst.jpg


Geee :) 

From no-no to no-mind 


Shantam schrieb:
> ...
> Especially in his non-communication with tan-MA-yo
>
Can't you recognize a no-mind communication if you see one?

> And then MA is right there...
> It will come...
>
Who?

Ka

Ka + Ma => Kama

Re: [LivingOsho] E J Gold: The men's guide to understanding "female tricks" 


jayen466 schrieb:
> ever read E. J. Gold's
> guide to understanding female tricks?
>
No, never. And even now I read only the beginning.
Gold's text stays flat and totally on the surface of the ego.
One stupid so called 'male' prejudice after the other.
Probably this Gold was an US American.

Sorry, but this text is really crap without any substance.

:)

Ka

Re: [LivingOsho] seeking a copy of this: 


Sarlo schrieb: 
    So Sheela did the needful and was duly condemned for it after she left. 
    Who really knows whether Osho told her to do it? It happened.

Well, 

 1. Osho had Sheela chosen for his secretary, because she would simply do what he said.

 2. The fascist setup of the commune and it's downfall was Osho's creation. 

 3. The hammering unto "Sheela and her gang" was his teaching for Sheela and the 
    formerly "big" mamas of the commune. 

 4. A year after the Oregon crash he gave a lecture to clean Sheela's name again
  (while she was allready in prison because of his teaching), but this lecture was
   mainly ignored in the Sannyas scene (and it was only one lecture in her favour
   against months of hammering on her reputation). 

Sannyas as a whole has also it's subconscious, suppressed material - or should we say:
Sannyas has also it's corpses in the cellar.

By the way, do you know, that this infamuous "poisoning" of the population, which Sheela
was accused of, turned out to be merely bad hygienic conditions in the hotels and
restaurants where the Salmonella infections occured?

Sheela is now a very loving and totally awake old lady. If all Sannyasins were of her
quality, the world would be a different place.


Kabir

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: seeking a copy of this: 


gondolf1 schrieb:
   > Very interesting comment about the hotels. Do you have any links
   > that might be used in defense of that conclusion?
   >

First of all, please do me the favor and have a look at what you
are doing, by calling my factual statement a "conclusion" and
imply that it needs to be defended. Your subconscious feels like
attacking the facts presented by me.

I uploaded a fax-copy of a press-release to the file section -
into Folder "Wasco County 1984".

Please consider, that this was a press-release about that "plot" which
had created a lot of rumor and interest at that time. Nevertheless
this press release did not receive nearly as much press coverage as the
original suspicions. Most Sannyassins don't even now up to now,
that the defamations against Sheela proved wrong. I'd say, this is
another example of selective filtering.

The Sannyas-mind is great with libel and slander and totally unaware
about how Osho used the mass of his Sannyassins to create teaching
situations for those rare other disciples who were ripe for ego-smashing
(Sheela and her gang got it as well as the targets of the great
therapist hunting of those Oregon years - Teertha, Somendra etc.).



greez
Kabir

And their feet smell of it's dust. 


Tanmayo schrieb: 
         I don't think calling for mama will help you much. 

I just used "mama" instead of "tanmayo" because you had ended your
last post to me in such a fuck-you motherly tone.

And anyway you reacted to it, by playing a therapist Ma.

              You may have found some truth there in between your intelligent braincells. 

Truth cannot be found and a ticket to Shangrilah 
cannot be bought anywhere.



Do you remember how we felt as childs?
A hot summerday, bare feet on the soft street,
then grass under the toes. Nothing to do,
the cows, which we childs should be looking after,
where quietly chewing. Just lying on the back in
the grass watching the clouds drifting thru the open 
eyes. No need to think. Timelessness.

I'm sure, you know the feeling, with grass or without,
with cows or without, in Europe or Asia, in a male
body or in a female one - the feeling is the feeling. I call
it to be in Shangrilah and I added an "h" to Shangrila.
I say, there should be as many "h" as possible in this
word. But Shhahhhnghhhrihhhlahhh would be too much,
too far out, because it's beauty lies in the fact that is is 
not at all different from here, although the place is not of 
this world.

The cars are the same, the people, the houses and streets.
Only more intense colors, more space, more air is there
in Shangrilah. And less therapists are there. Who would 
need a therapist in this country, where wonders can
happen any moment and the wonder that Shangrilah
exists _is_ happening every moment? 

In fact, I've never seen a therapist there. 
Friends, yes. Th-pists, no.
My theory is, that as soon as person tries to be a therapist
in Shangrilah, she is immediatedly and magically thrown out
of the country and back into New York, Munich, Palm Springs
or wherever she was before.



When did you feel like a child the last time?

               May you rest in silence

No chance. It's a very polite form of saying "shut up!",
but you may have noticed: I don't go for politeness.
I go for the place where nobody can go to.
And I'm stubborn enough not to want to be alone 
there. If it was only a three-legged dog, who
accompanied me to Shangrilah, it would be a blessing.
Actually, I think; there are already living millions in
Shangrilah. But I want to have them all, every single
one who is not there, is a miss.


As for your "silence":

True Silence and Meditation is only possible 
in Shangrilah. And Shangrilah is not enlightenment. 
I don't know what enlightement is. 
But  those who seem to know, seem also know 
perfectly well, what Shagrilah is,
and their feet smell of it's dust.




Kabir

Re: Vedr. [LivingOsho] And their feet smell of it's dust. 


You are arguing and fighting ghosts, Tao.
Just answer to yourself my question:
When was it the last time, that you had felt like a child?
The rest of your email is just resisting the answer to this question.
Your answer. To yourself. And your private Shangrilah
as well as private childhood.


I was in Shangrilah this morning, 
on the way to and in the supermarket
and on the way back


I'm not a missionary. 
I'm not going to save you.
I'm just a pain in the ass.


Kabir 

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: seeking a copy of this: 


jayen466 schrieb:
> I will walk a thousand leagues in falsehood, that one step of the
> journey may be true. - Junayd
>

Thanks for that quote, my friend. Made the rest of my day.

Ka

Re: [LivingOsho] From no-no to no-mind

Nirguna schrieb:

    There is no such thing like 'no-mind communication'
    All 'communication' goes through mind.
    Out of that some minds seem to turn it around and think they will achieve
    no-mind by being non-communicative...
   A famous physicist once said he knew only two things that are infinite:
    the universe, and human stupidity...

Hi Shantam,

it has nothing to do with the joke I was telling, but with a statement like
"There is no such thing like 'no-mind communication'"
you leaned too far out of the window, as it is said here in Bavaria.

There is something called I-shin-den-shin, ever heard about it? 
An expression from Zen. Literally it means "from my heart to your heart" 
- non-verbal communication between Master and disciple (for example). 
I know Masters, who use it in their schools; Michael Barnett for example. 
The western word Telepathy comes close, although the reality is stronger 
and more emotional than mere thoughts.

The nervuous system is probably still involved, but the mind is not, 
I would say. The mind is just a part of us. Fasten your lap strap.

The fact, that you have only a black-n-white film in your camera,
doesn't mean, that all the colors have vanished from the world.
And the "modern" western Science is only using the mind to
explore reality, don't forget that. So any "scientific" statement
which includes something about the mind, personality, meditation
and the like is an underwater-course in water-color painting.



Kabir

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: From no-no to no-mind 


Dharia schrieb: 
            From my experience, being with a Master, having him look into your eyes,
            there is a transfer of energy, shaktipat. Some religions call it Gong energy. 
            Emotions, thoughts, telepathy, physical energy etc., this is all kinds of Ki energy.
            Gong/shaktipat is the energy of the Divine, that is the energy that is felt in Master's presence,
            that is what the Master really shares with his disciples, that is what is felt in meditation. 
            Only a True Master or a disciple of such Master can transfer that energy. 

Thank you for your sharing.
I agree nearly 100% with what you wrote.


Where I disagree is the following:

• it's no a "transfer" of Energy but some sort of "resonance"
  of the two Energies. The master is not losing any Energy during
  Shaktipath - but he may be picking up some unclear things
  from the disciple also during the process, thus the master may
  need to clean himself afterwards (but that's a different story).
  In short: it's not the masters Energy, but your own, 
  which simply comes to life again.

• there is no master or teacher needed to have this resonance
  happen, just any person with a higher Energy level will activate it
  in others with a lower frequency. Yet masters and teachers have
  often extremely strong energy and are experienced to work with it. 
  Nevertheless for example among the inner circle of an Ashram (where
  nearly all have this energy "acrive") it is also very common to
  experience the Energy resonance. 

• there is no special meditation needed, just to live together under one
  roof may trigger it. The meditative setup may be used for other means, 
  to prepare the persons, open and relax their minds, keep them silent etc. 
  The strongest environment for energy-renonance to happen is Sex
  by the way. So don't have him look only into your eyes. ;)
  

• the energy-"awakening" can also happen spontanuously without any
  "ignition" through other persons - but that's more seldom, I assume. 
  
  
  

And then I feel like adding the following:

The awakening of the Energy is just the start of a longer process.
During the first years of that development it is very helpful to have
a master/teacher/guide/spiritual friend and follow her/his advice as close
as possible. This is so, because the Energy will transmutate the
nervuous system - your brain is going to be reprogrammed, and that is
most surprising during the first years of the process; hence one needs
a fixed point of reference, the Spiritual Friend, as I like to call it.

In addition to the Guide, building a group, living together and in an Ashram
during the first years is also very advisable. That helps to minimize
conflicts with the outside society and concentrate on the inner development
of the participants. As the inner process will certainly also bring up dark
material from the personal and the collective subconscious (the soul cleanses
herself through that) absolute discipline is needed in these groups (another
point for going unto this journey only with a Spiritual Friend).


Kabir
About 5 years of intensive training under guidance of a master,
all in all 13 years of experience with the above process.



 

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: From no-no-no to no-mind 


swamiali@... schrieb:
> This is totally wrong what you say here ...
> It only flatters your EGO, being with a True Master,
> And a real teaching, and a real thing.
>
> The truth is: it is not a question of the teacher at all;
> only of the honesty and authentixity of the desciple.
>

That's the truth of somebody who ran away from a
true master when he had had the chance. And since
that time he is giving lectures in the internet about
the sour grapes of disciplehood.

Not without some tragic.
But certainly with a lot of other human qualities...
intelligence, trust, strength, flexibility, self-criticism...

From Shangrilah to Munich and back. 


I take the Augustiner grapes. Or the Weisswuerst and
Weissbier down in Tal, where they serve the Weisswuerst
only up to 12:00 noon (I allways forget the name of the place,
but my mulis know the way, and you probably know what
I mean). That are the best in town, or do you know any better?

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: From no-no to no-mind 


Dear Dharia, you wrote:
> Thank you for the resume.
>

You are wellcome.

> I don't feel that what we do in a mystery school, has anything to do
> with "reprogramming the brain", or deprogramming it or anything like
> that.

That's a mistunderstanding. When a young human become adult, many
things within the body and mind could be said to be 'reprogrammed' during
puperty, yet nobody is doing it. I meant it just like that. For me the
Energy,
you spoke about has it's own wisdom.

> All we do is work on awareness and awareness has nothing to do
> with programming.
>

But with losing the fixed sets of programming.

> I am not sure what exactly you mean by a "Spiritual friend", a
> Master is someone who is awake.
>

I call somebody, who knows and lives the open secrets of life, a mystic.
If a Mystic is able to help others to reach also, she/he is a teacher.
And when a teacher has the abilty to help a lot of different energy-types,
it's a master.

The relationship between disciple and master/teacher varies, depending
on the individual structures of the two. For some disciples the relationship
is that towards a lover, for others it's their master, again others see the
divine behind the master/teacher and some feel friendship.

You cling very much to single words, Dharia. And consequently you think,
that there is a difference or an opposition, if the other did not use
the same
words as you do. While I like to use many different words for the same
experience, because I want to grasp and transmit as much of it as possible.

So I may call a color "bluish-green-yellow-pinkish" and you freak out,
because
you learned that "Nirvana is turquoise" (the name of a piece of music I
like)
an thus you think that a) I speak about Nirvana and b) I can't see
clearly, because
I don't say the word "turquoise" and c) when I speak about that thing of the
color of a "turk-mouse" you answer with "Swamiji said, there are no mice
in Nirvana".

Mental freedom, being deprogrammed, having a flexible and obidient mind,
or an "open mind" is all the same for me, and there is ample space for mice
and elefants and other animals of all colors under my skull. But a
turk-mouse
was not there, yet I like music (in this case from the internet radio
radioio.com - stream "ambient").

That's all totally unspiritual for me, while I know, something is called
"spiritual"
by others. It's Nature, nothing is special and everything is special.
BTW friends of mine did some music: http://www.garageband.com/artist/taotao


Now I've forgotten what you wrote.
I wish you the same.

Kabir

Re: Alan Watts riff 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "jayen466" <jayen466@...> wrote:
>
> ... So, supposing there was an original cosmic explosion which went
> FOOM, we sitting around in this room now are little curlicues on
the
> end of it, you see? We are, actually, every one of us is incredibly
> ancient. [...]
> Now, if you just want to define yourself as a little curlicue on
the
> end of things and say 'That's all of me there is,' then you've got
> to be a puppet and say 'Well, I've been pushed around by this whole
> system.'

"Just stop thinking, let things happen, and be the ball."

Sure. It's a quote, it has to be right.

By why be the ball in an old video from 1986 only? Or in that great
game in 1990 - again and again? Had been really great games, sure,
and I like to read a good old text myself - now and then. But not
allways and not in the Dojo.

What about being the ball now? Or claim to be the pitcher?
NOW? Not on the spritiual TV of one dead person or the other,
but in reality - now? And reality is where the real balls are,
those which can make us scream (and not only applaud).

After all we are not only the particles, but a part of that FOOM!
also - don't we?

Don't play such damned safe by quoting holy men,
be whole yourself, say your own stuff, get hitten.

This society, which is more interested in copy protection than
in individuality, is itself already hit and tumbling high in the
air anyway. Time to try the home run without the old books and tapes.


.... you

Ka

Re: Hans to Michael The Invisible 


Hans wrote:

> I once declared this virtual Master that I lived more
> sober than He does, but when He hears about a male,
> living in Amsterdam, the automatic responses are
> unsuppressable.
> What to do?
> ***smiling***

Have a tea - from whatever leaves you like it.

You love to remember and quote. And at the same time you
push away those things, which don't fit your self-image.
We all do, it's not my point, who is more in smoke or dust
than the other. But I like to take the opportunity to draw
you off your boat into the water. I'm the virtual
Frog With The Mask.

For example: I remember having said (to you, if I'm right,
but at least in your virtual presence and in the context of
me calling you a dope-head), that I see ego as the mother of
all addictions, the essence, which is behind all jones.

But you seem to have brushed that away. You pretended not to
'get' it then, and you still focus only on the poor power plant
and not on your own PATTERNS OF ARGUING AND THINKING.

This tendency, to pick up only the things, which fit you,
and answer only on that level and into that directions,
where 'you' feel safe, that's the dope I am referring to
(in your case as well as in mine).


> I allow myself not to react in detail, cause you're
> gone again. May be the universal spy from Munich can forward
> this to you.

Black Spy - White Spy?
Virtual Master - Virtual Disciple?
Which dope is that? Mary Spirituality?
Merry Go Round?

You had my email, but you didn't contact me. Hence this
whole posting of yours is not intended to get to me,
but just begging for some attention in an internet list.


Going for the attention from somebody else
cripples your own ability to create it.


Hello Hans!
Nice to hear, that you are still alive.
Wish you well.

Ka

Re: Kundalini 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "gerdeslan" <gerdeslan@...> wrote:
>
> Newly here and did a search on Kundalini and there are no posts on
> that subject. Didn't Osho teach a Kundalini meditation?
>

Who is asking and about what?
About Kundalini-Energy?
About kundalini meditation technique?
About Kundaline process?
About Meditation state?
Or what?
And what is this gerdeslan ready to pay for it?

Re: About awakening 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "willy.persson" <willy@...> wrote:
>
> Hi!

Hi, Free Willy!

I'm not awakened. But I have a new, silent computer,
which let me listen to an internet radio station
(radioio.com) without disturbing noise. Together
with a new set of loudspeaker boxes, that is (the
old ones had a terrible hum even when switched off).
And the soulmate, I recently met, decided not to go
with me into deeper waters. So one could say,
that I found silence for the moment.

:) Michael

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: About awakening 


Hi Satrakshita,

  I would still be interested to know the brand and type of the silent PC you purchased however.
  In case I would prefer to lend me ears to sounds more smooth.


The Internet shop is at http://besser-leise.de

I bought the cheapest PC they have: 
http://besser-leise.de/index.php?id=47&backPID=47&tt_products=1

It's about the speed of a "normal" Office PC, which would
cost about 300,- while including transport I paid for this one 610,-. 
So I estimate you might have to pay at least double prices for a 
machine of the same speed. When I switched it on, I often thought, 
the power cable is not plugged in, because I didn't hear it starting. 
Only in the middle of the night, when everything is silent and I don't 
play music or type something, I can hear a very distant noise, some
sort of hissing, as if somewhere far, far away water was flowing through
a pipe.

So it's worth it. We could have such PCs everywehere, if we valued 
people more than money.


    Perhaps Ka is enlightened and he may help you.
    You too, Willy, ask for Ka.


Oh no, better don't do that. Within my set of multiple 
personalities, Ka is the one with the fighting stick.
Michael is the down-to-earth adult (even perhaps a
little adultery?) part, reliable computer admin etc.
Whenever he comes out, I love Kabir, a poet, a mystic.
Then there is Jivano, the old Sannyasin, always broke
and allways ready to correct Osho. And the black one, 
whose name I don't know and don't want to know, and 
whose experiences in practical matters of magic help in case.
Plus some other models, who are not yet 100% programmed.

If you go for an ego, don't be satisfied with only one,
and never with those types of egos the society tries to grow. 
Create the ones, you like to have around you. But - of course -
then you cannot complain so well about yourself or blame
others.

And behind the whole bunch of egos, the loving and strong 
Lady of the house, which we all love and adore and obey, 
and who is usually more listening than saying anything.


Michael et al. 

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Alan Watts riff-raff 


Sarlo schrieb: 
        Mmmm, all very well, but is THIS the Dojo? Or maybe is the Dojo everywhere, 
        that we must submit to its rules? (As interpreted by you?)


Unenvious today? Tsst, tsst.
Are we at the brink of some elections?

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: About awakening 


the buff schrieb: 
        A true indication of awakening is that the awakened keep very quiet and do not 
        tell anyone about. Noone. Not even their wives/husbands. ..

And then there are the many cases of the ones who first talked
about it and later revoked it - like enlightened master Michael Barnett,
former Somendra, who triggered Bhagwan to shout in the middle
if the lecture: "SOMENDRA! THE GOOSE IS OUT!", yes the same
Michael Barnett, who is now calling his disciples "Goosies".
All of which brings me to the question, raised by many a friend,
wether my sentences are really too long, or just the mind of my
readers is too short for my sentences.

Hot Dogs? Coca Cola? Philosophical questions? Enlightenment?

A Question? Yes sir, here its is, fresh out of the press:

"If the prerequisite for enlightenment
is the absense of someone,
who is going to claim it?"

Another one? Refill is free, sir. Ok, enjoy:

"Is enlightenment interested in enlightenment?"

Thank you, a very generous tip!
May your team win!

Hot Dogs? Coca Cola? Zen cushions?

No, sorry Madam, Tantra cushions are already out.
So sorry. No, that's not a macho trick, it's the
high volume of sales; we just can't get as much 
Tantra as we could sell. Thank you for your kind
offer, but I'm not in the mood at the moment.

Beer? Fanta? Coke? LSD? Angels Dust?

Yes, my dear little one? NO, enlightenment is
for adults only. Yes, I know, the better things
are always for the worse guys. Have a Maoam.

Cigarettes? Meditations? Baseball Caps?
Sure! Which team? Goosies? Oh, Madam,
you are wrong here, the esotheric fair is in
hall 23. Yes, over there, up to the end, then thru
the big gateless gate and there you are.
You are wellcome, it was a pleasure to see, 
aeh to help you.




Hope that hinders.

Only through hindrances do we 
experience our real powers.

Michael et al.

the buff schrieb: 

              Whooooeeeeeee, whatever your smoking, send some over!


At the moment:

Sounds From the Ground - Over There

http://radioio.com - channel ambient

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Hans to Michael The A Bit Visible. 


Hi Hans, you wrote: 
--- In LivingOsho@yahoogro ups.com, "Kabir" <michael@... > wrote:
   >
   > Hi Hans,
ZNIP
   > 
   > Reading your post astonished me bigly, because I experienced
   > you differently. 


Pretty old posting you are referring to, but let's just assume,
it was yesterday.

You answered:

   Of course, that's where communication starts.
   You already for years seem to take your experience of 
   people for objectively, double checked truths.



Objectively? Objectively, double checked truths?

Which object should check me or you?
Which object should grasp the concept of truth?
That would mean, the object had to have experience
and memory of truth and lie.

And to 'double check' something means, you a) don't trust your 
first observation and b) limit your second observation to true or
false by comparing it only against the first one. And c) you try to 
make the observed thingamagic into a dead, unmoving and 
unchanging thing and reject any alife (i.e. changing) behavour 
as being untrue, unobjective.

I don't want to be an object in your universe.
One dead is enough on the boat.


In essence your point is not truth and not objectivity, 
your point is it that you want me to see the subject of 
discussion as you damned please to judge it.

You protect your way of seeing.
Psychology calls it ego protection.

Which is not uncommon among humans, especially
as the subject of discussion was (and is) you and me 
and how we feel about each other.

But, man you piss me off with all your Internet and Satsang
wisdom, which you pull out and use solely to defend your own 
little image of Dorian Gray. Your claim for truth and objectivity
is my spiritual tombstone.



   > Obviously we humans are all living in totally
   > different universes of seeing the things - especially
   > seeing ourselves - in unimaginable different ways.

It's not that obvious to me.
It took me decades to find this out AND not having to
fight it all the time.
I still am totally surprized almost daily, when I 
get how my girl friend percieves the 'world'.


Soft and nice little power maniac you are. Probably used
your verbal intelligence to manipulate your environment
wherever you could.

Now I come along, say what I want to say, and your
cantankerousness jumps to the ceiling - oops, sorry,
your correct me objectively and logically, because
I was missing an objective truth.

No chance, Think-Tank. I'm at least as dominant as you are.
And I don't hide it behind four letter words like "objective".
You may dream beautiful dreams on your houseboat of being 
a free thinker and don't have to fight different opinions. But in reality
it's just enough that I share some of my moments and you paddle 
as furiously as possible back into your harbour of objective truth
about yourself.


   > I even 
   > tend to say, it's extremely seldom, if we happen to communicate 
   > successfully once in a while. 

Between us it didn't happen, MY EXPERIENCE, because I need
a specific way of building up contact, that in your way of
communicating seems to be excluded.


I was not aware, that you wanted to communicate, i.e. exchange.
I always thought you just wanted to confirm (and be confirmed about)
what great, easy and cool man you are.


   See, you communicate from your conclusions, as always, 
   without any intention to check with the other if your
   conclusions about the other have a connection with 
   the other from the pov of the other.


POV = Prisoner Of Viewpoint


   This is what I always tried to bring up.
   In that sense was communicating with you a lonely adventure.


Which implies that your usual communications with other people
are cosy, cuddling cushions of mutual avoidances against feeling alone.


But my truth is:
Nobody can be born for me or with me,
nobody can die for me either.

And the greatest splash of a 200 kg Frog ever:
nobody can feel and see the world as I do.
Even the Tao needs me to see it that way -
and I'm happy to be of service and add my 
moments of views to the whole.

I'm alone.

And I don't fear it.

Yet - you do, right?


Ka

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Alan Watts riff 


Hi Jayen,


   > Actually, I was just thinking today that all these masters always
   > talk about earlier masters, and their sayings.
   >

Let's face it: the times of the masters are over. Even this great fulminant
firework of religion and spirituality mrked more the end of that age
than the beginning of a new one. Osho with his master-centric way of
teaching the "new man" was part of the end of the old age.

   > But to come back to the point, Zen masters comment on earlier Zen
   > masters, Sufis comment on earlier Sufis, etc. etc., always using
   > their precursors as starting or reference points. How unoriginal!
   > Another way of looking at it is that all of these sayings etc. form
   > an evolving building that belongs to no one in particular.
   >
I oppose that view - it's past-oriented, goal-oriented. As if saying
were more important than the one who said it.

There is only the space, only the sky as the old ones used to say.
Just the human being - not more, not less. I am part of it, you are
part of it - active parts, living cells. Yes, we are standing on the
shoulders
of our teachers and partners, friends and enimies, but we are not
just the result of the past. We are also the seed of the future.

Making music with our feet in the sands.

God bless you

Ka

[LivingOsho] Re: Hi 


Shantam wrote about Dharia:

   You are talking beautiful theory here, which you probably picked up from
   some book or other..
   But you are wandering around yourself..


Her Buddha is working on her and our egos
by making her ego play stupid, that's all. It's an 
excellent example, you can learn a lot from it, 
Shantam. If your own Buddha allows you to 
see it, that is.

The Buddhas play multi-dimensional spiritual football,
and we are the grass, the ball, the shoes and the shins.


Michael

empty message 


Dharia wrote: 
   Love
   Dharia



When I was young, I said "I am in Love" 
and meant "I am thirsty".
Later in life it meant "here is water for you",
with an unspoken "gimme some back, please".
Now I am in Love and neither thirsty nor
wanting more, because for me it's like
"I am in Water".


Kabir

[LivingOsho] Re: empty message 


Dharia schrieb: 
    Beloved Kabir, 

     But YOU are still in the water. 



And you analyze and discuss in realms,
where action of the heart is asked for.
With all of your answers you simply show that 
you try to solve everthing with your mind

It's a trick of the ego to claim being 
on the path away from the ego. 


If you really wanted to improve,
you would be in close contact with
people whom you see as more awake
as you are, instead of playing the super-wise 
woman in an email list of people, whom you 
feel like correcting every moment anyway.




Thank you

Ka

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Alan Watts riff 


Hi Jayen!

jayen466 wrote: 
    Osho never lied in silent satsang. :-)


You are right.

Thank you for your insights.

Love
Kabir

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Hi Uncle 


swamiali@... schrieb: 
   Only the 95% who don't write, have found the humble
   ideal of "not wiser than thou" within themselves. LOL



What about the "deafer than you" and "blinder than you"
attitude? I'd have good chances for the first price in these
contests, I think. If I only knew where and when they
started - I never get the info.

<grin>
Jivano 

Don't just loose - do something. 


Dharia schrieb: 
    I guess what is needed is reminding myself 
    that in "this game", to win is to lose. 


That's very wise, dearest Dharia.

And you try to accomplish that by
intentionally showing your wisdom
and thus provocing the others to 
prove you wrong, so that you may 
lose one argument after the other
and thus develop into the winning
soul, you allways have been and
will allways be.

I adore you enviously. :)

But please enlighten me: what will you
do after you have lost+won everything?
Start all over? To win+lose again?


The beauty of a flower comes from the 
fact that it's fragrance has no direction.


Kabir

--

Boats with lampions, silently flowing nightly 
waters. Laughing people, Music.
I must be drunken to swim into the dark
and let my feet be pulled by the river
without a reason. And with a lot of fear.

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Don't just loose - do something. 


Dharia hammered in stone:

   I used to word "win" in the same sense some use the word "achievment" for realization. By 
   loosing I meant loosing "myself", not the argument. 

Perhaps first you need to find it?


   All arguments are from lack of seeing. 
   Really there is nothing to win or nothing to lose, I understand. 


You are right as always.
Seeing is acting, said J Krishnamurti.
So according to your actions and reactions in this
email-list, our are having a great party with yourself
playing hide and seek the whole time. :)

A young dog, chasing it's tail.
Until something more interesting comes along.
Nice and useless.

Of course we old Sannyasins are getting the pimples,
when we see that. Because it reminds us too painfully about
the useless circles we are doing in our live: Pune, Oregon, Munich,
Pune, Babji, Pune, Goa, Osho, Krishnamurti, finding
ourselves, loosing ourselves, meditating, going to the market,
claiming to be enlightened, wanting to commit suicide, falling in love, 
manipulating the lover, searching for truth, lying to our neighbours. 
Endless. Painfully endless. We try to stop you, but in reality
we want to stop us. We tell your mind to shut up, because we've
already given up with our own mind.

It's nice you are here. :)


   Once I made a claim to my Master that I know his soul 
   (that was in the very beginning) and 
   he told me: "You don't know my soul, you don't even 
   know your soul". 


Your master is too stern with you. Of course you know your
soul, what else are you chasing? And you are already in deep 
contact with it. Why else would you be chasing?


The beauty of a young dog comes from the
fact that it's mind has neither rest nor direction.
But it's heart has.


The old Sannyasins, like Sarlo, are just envious, 
don't listen to them. They would be happy, if they
could be as nice and useless like a young dog.
Gnawing for thirty years on the same big
Osho-bone and classifying Gurus by the hundreds
- any blog is more interesting - only uselessness 
remains.

Look! Over there! A frisby! Oh no, an Ufo! Great!

"If you cannot drop it, pick it up!"
said a Zen Master, dead by now.

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: empty message 


Nirguna wrote:

   * Jesus tapped me on the shoulder and said, Bob, why are you resisting
   me? I said, I'm not resisting you! He said, You gonna follow me? I said,
   I've never thought about that before! He said, When you're not following me,
   you're resisting me. -- Bob Dylan *


Jesus tapped Bob on the shoulder when Bob was 37 years old. 
Before that Bob Dylan was not going for Christianity or following Jesus.
Sannyas got me short before I became 35 years and real Sannyas at 
about the age of 48. Before that I experienced self-determination to
the fullest - I allways did what I wanted to do, worked where I wanted to
and how I wanted it (quit a good paid job, because one evening my boss
told me to clean up and make order on my desk, before leaving in the
evening). I lived my ego to the fullest and experienced all the consequences
in person. I don't regret and I don't want to go back. That's an enormuous help.

Ego cannot be "dropped" as long as it's unripe. That's why Osho took care, 
that his Sannyasins got all the possibilities to grow the biggest egos that are 
ever seen on earth.

Let's celebrate our Most Beloved Master and rename this list to

LivingOshoEgos

before it's too late - this way or other or third way.

As there is no possibility to vote in this group here,
I invite you all to vote with your feet:



Click to join LivingOshoEgos 


Cheerful greetings too all the high priests 
and politicians in the Sannyas scene!

Jivano

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Don't just loose - do something. 


Hi Dharia,

you didn't get me. No problem.
And I don't feel like correcting you.
I hope, that's also no problem.

The longest travel is the one to one's own knees.
If I only had feet and knees to go there ...
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

God bless you

Enlightenment pure

Just read this while searching in a software forum.

"The only thing, which is distributed fairly in the world,
is brains. Everybody believes to have got enough."

(Das Einzige, was auf der Welt gerecht verteilt ist,
ist der Verstand. Jeder glaubt genug davon zu haben.)


Michael

Don't just Prem - go for Plem Plem 


Hi Dharia,

I can understand your experiences with your Aquarian boy
friend very well. This quick, airy mind I have, is often felt as 'cold'
(even I mysqlf sometimes had this feeling).

I do not not believe in enlightenment - in fact I do believe, there is such
a state. Yet as I see it, I cannot go for and cannot run away from it.
The whole thing of developing myself is a trip for me. It's neither in my
hands nor is it my business to develop myself. If I feel like doing something,
which is usually understood as self-development (say go and see a master),
it is just because I feel like it - comparable to saying "yes" or "no" to
the question wether to go with a friend into the newest movie. A lot of
feelings may come out of this decision, but I cannot determine which
experiences it will be. The only thing, which I might be able to influence,
is it wether I'm honest and truthfull in my decision in that moment or not.

That may not sound much of a personal life-plan, but it's consequences
are enormuous, because these little decisions create reality, and by not
planing the decisions in advance, more room is created, more energy
is available to watch the movie, a more relaxed state is happening.

Yet this state of mine came after many years of trying to develop
myself this way or other. I paid for it, as I say.


You use the word Buddha differently than I do.
For me the Buddha is already there in all of us (but 
often not easily recognized). So there is no need
for me to become one. She is already here, guiding
my life every minute, telling me, what to write to you,
for example. Being often silent and letting me do my thing,
but then out of a sudden giving me a clap, a hug, an idea
or a feeling - I never know. If enlightenment is for me,
she will lead me there, if spiritual prison is a better place 
for me, I'm sure, she will also manage. 

Hence there is no such thing as awakening for me. Who should
awake? The Inner Buddha? She is already awake.
The outer identifications, the illusions of a "me"? 
An "awake" illusion is not possible. And living this life of
following my inner Buddha, slowly slowly my identification
shifts. More and more I become it. The Sufis have an old
story about that kind of development, which I put online at 
http://khidr.net by the way.

That's my life.




              Prems are often the dreamers and the utopians. 

Prems love relationships, especially love relationships.
They live and grow through them. Best broken hearts in town. 
And they love gossiping, don't they? 

That are my prejudices about Prems.


Bye for now.
Ka

[LivingOsho] Maturity 


Tanmayo schrieb:
>
> Seems the law of Jante is more widespread than i thought.
>

Ego is more widespread than you thought and
it's consequences reach farther than you'd imagine.
Perhaps _you_ are the ego?


It is a logical consequence (provable in game-theory -
just google for Johansson for example), that egoistic
value-systems within a larger population (society) MUST
lead to loss of individuality, suppression of the special
case by the social interest groups, the individual being
forced to behave according to the mean of the group etc.

That is, the egoistic behaviour, which functions very well
to ensure the survival within low population densities
(family groups, nomades), _must_ lead to problems
within larger societies. The main problem ist stagnation
and degration because of lack of variety (individuality)
in my opinion. This can only be overcome by fights (wars)
between the sub-global societies. But as the global
society (the "Empire") is coming, no more cleansing wars
are possible - except for the global (then civil) war. The
infamous war against terror cannot be won, because
terrorism is the product of the empire - two aspects of the
ego-empire fight against each other.

It's not a new-age moralistic but a scientific standpoint, that
future societies cannot be based on egoistical value systems.
When the currently dominating egoistical value system remains,
the population density _must_ be (and therefore will be) reduced
to the level of nomades - although that development may take
some hundreds or even thousand of years. The global and globalised
ego-society of the current time is highly instable.




Fasten your lap strap.
Thank you for flying Lufthansa.

Kabir

Re: [LivingOsho] Ahead 


Tanmayo schrieb:
   >
   > Do you also feel ahead of time? This feeling is new to
   > me, it has started to show up from time to time and
   > its not about flying Lufthansa.
   >

No I don't feel ahead of time. I like to imagine things far
in the possible future, I'm thinking strategically, very often
jump up the ladder towards higher abstractions and into
the future. What I like is to move along the dimension of
time and meaning, but somehow if it's good, it's like skating
the timeline with my mind, where time flows into the future
and meaning into the past. Or flying into the future like
a hawk. When I feel time, I feel more to be outside it, than ahead
or behind it. And - in a vage sense - time does not move,
we move in time/meaning.

But most of the time, I'm just normal :)

And I sometimes (not often) get glimpses, visions, but those
come from beyond and are therefore more something,
which pushes me around, make me see things in a certain
way, make me act, feel, behave, change my attitude in the
long run.

Yet my feeling what is normal, has made many u-turns
during the last years :)

I think, everybody of us has her/his own set of talents.
But I'm more interested how 100% of a talent can
be lived, than what special talent it is. Some see colors,
go on astral travels, can see auras, heal people,
invent new things, make music, bake cakes - I can just
bake cakes and eat them. Now and then i take some
friends and travel with them in my words to the land
of green ginger where my heart springs open as if it
was never closed.

--

And of course like every other bad poet, I can steel
from the texts of others without a bad conscience
and sometimes make children forget the orders of
their mother. :))


Mustafah Ali Kabir

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Don't just Prem - go for Plem Plem 


Hi Dharia,

whatever you did, the words which
arrived here were (more or less):

   > I also always read your "schrieb" as a kind of insult, in Russian
   > there is a similar word which means something like "scrub".
   >
Hehe. No, it means "wrote". Comes from the Latin word "scribere",
writing.

> Craziness sounds good. Actually I already got used to the title of a
> madwoman given to me by my family, most of the times I try to
> pretend like I am normal, not to draw too much attention to myself.
>

Many highly provocative souls learn that as a child. But underneath is
the pain not to be accepted as we are. Yet born, natural upsetters
are seldomly appreciated. Alarm clocks are not loved by dreamers.
I had to make sure, that I trust myself again after the many years
of slimeyness. I mean: everybody has to learn that, but for a spoilsport
like me it's certainly going more uphill then for - say - cushies.

Nowadays, many souls with upsetting talents (with Shiva energy)
have been incarnated, you will not be lonely :) But with upsetters it's
the other way around than in the cushies-society: if you are polite and
well adapted, they may pretty well ignore you totally - or spit unto the
ground, when you pass by, etc. etc. Meanwhile I learnt to love that,
after all we don't upset everybody.

> As for Allah being a she, yes, this I've heard and it is very
> natural for you to address Divine as a She, it is just so funny,
> because I've never heard Buddha being addressed as a she...:) Those
> are just words of course, but it sounds funny.
>

Not just words, also a feeling. A small feeling, not a big thing.
But why not pay attention to the small feelings also?


Greetings to you and your Buddha.

Katharina, Ka and the rest of the gang :)

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Ahead

Dharia schrieb: 
   Beloved Kabir, 

    It is ok to fall in love with energetic mirrors, in fact it is very 
    good for someone on a path of love. The danger is in being stuck 
    with the mirror. 



This is theoretical bullshit, kiddy. You have not yet followed a
teaching (nothing to say about surrendering) and are allready 
philosophising about being stuck.

Better talk about those themes, in which you are sure to have
enough personal experience to open your mouth.

And stop that "Beloved" and "Love", are you Jesus?

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Ahead 


Dharia schrieb: 
   I even 
    brought a story about a man at Gurdjieff's school who was creating 
   trouble for everyone around and he was the only student whom 
   Gurdjieff actually paid to stay with him, because he was creating 
   that "shaking". So I said to my Master that I am probably like that 
   student, to which he responded that it is not my nature, the reason 
   I am having problems with others is because I am resisting very 
   hard, resisting my own nature.


So you need someone to bring you into that shaking 
after you had prepared yourself for it? Interesting story. 
It's the hardest and most direct path, I know. 
I was brought into shaking in the summer of
1993 - or maybe 1992? or 1994? 
I've forgotten which year it was, but I still remember 
how it happened and how it felt.

Perhaps Gurdjieff was creating that shaking himself, and
he paid the man for being his straw man? Nice idea -
very Gurdjieff-like.


Ka

[LivingOsho] Re: Ahead


swamiali@... schrieb:
   Ha ha, all your flattery was in vain ...
   she will not change her stubborn behaviour.
   The most you can get is some "Devoleb" or "Evol".
  You are not the first one, who had this idea.


She's better than you and me together, isn't she?

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: Ahead 


swamiali@... schrieb:
   >
   > > She's better than you and me together, isn't she?
   >
   > No, she's younger than you and me.
  >

Again you just missed a chance, Ali,
by taking the clever door and thus avoided
a very minor and joking put-down for your ego.

This Shiva girl will not do that IMO. When she
decides - in which life ever this may be -
she'll go straight where she wants to go.
Her stubbornness will not allow her anything
else.

She's more stubborn than you.

And _you_ would never be ready to make yourself
into such a criticized center of attention in an eso-
environment, also.

Hence she's braver than you, too.

Re: [LivingOsho] Kabeer's dreams 


swamiali@... schrieb: 
   Is it ? As usual you play the master teacher -
   Why should i follow your criterions?
   Is not your train coming soon? Your ego
   escaping.



Boring, unimaginative aggression.


        I'm not a fortune teller like you.



Perhaps you are not able to see others,
because most of your energy goes into
building up and defending you self-image.


            Is she ? I think you know me not at all.



Again boring and unexpressive. Only defending.



     oh my, in deed what a deed.
     being the queen in the water glass.



You are not water, you are a deep frosted
package left over from the last ice age.



           > Hence she's braver than you, too.

     i will tell it my tin soldiers ... lol



lol? No, FUDGE, BM


Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt, Greed and Envy.
First of all fear, Big Mouth.


Sw. Jivano :))

Re: Imagination 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, Max <manard1@...> wrote:
   > Hello!
   > I have a little problem, I hope you can give me a hint.

Sure. Why don't you drop dead?

You ask about magic and what I hear is:
"shall I or shall I not?".

For the (not so many) friends here in the list,
who don't have experience with magic or prefer
not to remember them (not so few), the essence
of such a question is:

...---+++ "Shall I try black magic or not?" +++---...


I don't discuss matters of black magic
with somebody who is not showing his face
and is not giving (at least his public) spiritual name.

Ais dammo sannantano!

The Dark One

Re: Kabeer's dreams 


--- "hans" wrote:
>
> the first day of a short holiday.
> We stay in Europe and start in Kleve :-)

Happy Journey!

Michael

Re: [LivingOsho] Re: more new planets 

jayen466 schrieb: 
   And which star sign would want to have a minor planet, a mere pebble, 
   as its ruler?



I do. And I invite other souls born under the sign of Aquarius to join in.

As Aquarius I say "Yeah! One step closer to freedom!
We're on the cusp of leaving the solar system! In 4000 years
every spaceship crossing Plutos orbit on the way out
will be happy to have a human born as Aquarius on board
to start the farewell party with a traditional toast on Pluto!
No longer bound to a mere planet!

"Three ... two ... one ... beep!

"This toast goes to Pluto! Solar-Guests, Ladies, Gentlemen -
we just crossed the orbit of pluto. The Solar-farewell party is 
started, the bar is open! Limitless Freedom for all! The first
round goes on the Captain and the first dance to our beautiful
Lady Nav Argha ! 

"And - I may add, the solar laws do no longer apply from here on ;)

"Yes, Sir, we have every good substance on board. No, 
Jas Jade is not allowed to be anywhere except on Jas.
You certainly know that. That's more than a law, that's a 
Nav Reco. Excuse me, I have to check the drive.

"Hi Argha! Yeah, ragargar orgog to! Tangpa woaggagag'ne.
Shi ka."




Kabir et al.

Dancing silence 


Dharia wrote: 
    When will peace come?



When we are ready to go.
Not enough room for two
wherever we look.
Even in our dreams we are melting.

Oil the hinges of the thiefdoor please.

Like a thief in the night I enter my own house,
very careful not to wake up the children too early.
I go into every room - I know them all so well,
have I not built them from scratch without any tools?
Even after such a long time, my breath is still drifting
trough the stones. In the kitchen, where I know them
to come into first in the morning, I leave some fruits on the
table and make nearly invisible footprints with their little
shoes, so that they can discover them, feel loving and
can shout: "Oh, that was me! I was it myself! I just had
forgotten! Here - taste my apple!"

Sadness

Beloved Diarrhea,

you wrote:

    I don't see how Mayo is better than Sad or Diarrhea...: ) 



You are totally right.

KaKa 

Re: [LivingOsho] Nicknames 

sampas22000 schrieb: 
   But in all truth Dharia I found your letter to be an intrusion into my
   exchange with Tanmayo, totally irrelevant to the topic:


The function of Diarrhea it to get rid of something as fast as possible.
Don't stand behind an elephant when it happens. Or if you are standing
there, when it happens, then at least don't complain too loud, as this
will increase the number of laughers. :))


    my answer to
    Tanmayos'question about my name.
    It had nothing to do with nicknames.


Then it's time for little nickering story.



A Swami comes running into the bathrooms, only 
to find the most important door in the universe locked.

"QUICK!" he shouts, hammering on the door,
"I have DIARRHEA!!!"

"b-e-e... h-a-p-p-e-e..." 
comes the answer from behind the door.

The G.U.R.U. Newsletter #14

--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, atul kukadia <atulkukadia@...>
wrote:
>
> Hello, To all members,
> i need some personal guidance, anybody like to guide
> me.
> Atul Kukadia
> Gujarat/India


atulkukadia
No photo selected

Last Update: 04/04/2001

My Email: Private

Real Name:

Nickname:

Location:

Age:

Marital Status:
No Answer
Sex:
Male
Occupation:

Links
Home Page:
No home page specified
Cool Links:
No cool link specified

Re: [LivingOsho] 


--- "Nirguna" <anandnirguna@...> wrote:

> Nobody guiding nobody.

And the clever ego wisely commenting on everything.

> That's the right place here for that!

Indeed.

Re: [LivingOsho] Guidance 


Sarlo wrote: 
   Noticing Michael's response just now, i see it may be worthwhile noting 
   that Atul's IP does show him to be writing from Ahmedabad GJ


Do we need IP-addresses to know where a man is coming from?

I don't care where one is writing from, if it's not from his heart, Sarlo.
Are we writing from our hearts in this email list, Sarlo?
Or are we only writing about?

Have we grown in love, since Cohen sung the song of a seeking 
generation?

http://prisken.free.fr/musique/Leonard%20Cohen%20-%20Suzanne.mp3


Or have we just grown in words? 
Words full of billions of fingermarks
and empty of essence.



Jivano

Re: [LivingOsho] Guidance 


Somebody wrote:


                As you know, some people have assumed false identities in these lists


... and many more have assumed false hearts.

What we feel as more painful depends on our individual
value system. 


If we don't go for the heart, there is no need to wear red 
and carry a mala on the breast or in the mind.


And we know, our beloved ones are half crazy ...
as we ourselves are ... ego has no love to give ...
ego speaks about identities ... the heart speaks 
in tears and writes with shaking fingers in a world
full of uncertainties.


Osho ist dead. Have we learned what he could teach us?
Have we learned where to look between the garbage of
Life for the flowers? Have we learned to look between his fingers?
Are we still ready to have our hearts broken any moment by a 
stranger? If not, then we are dead already. 


When Cohen wrote this song, in the time when we came to Bhagwan,
we all were half-crazy, but were ready to learn from each other,
learn from everyone who touched our heart.

Now we are only repeating the words of the Master without 
any space in our hearts for a fresh learning. We recite from the 
Zen Manifesto while Cohen went to a Zen monstery. Are we 
really what we believe to be - Sannyassins, monks on the path?



             I understand and appreciate that you write mostly from your heart.


There is not my heart or your heart, there is only _the_ heart.
We share atomic waste, contaminated air and water, we share
all the bullshit we have in our minds, but we don't share _the_ heart?

Sannyas was not my dream and not your's, it was _our's_
Have we given up a dream too insecure for our minds to be 
able to live in the undisturbing safety of a religious happiness cult?

We all know the answers, our self-explanations, self-justifications 
and self-excuses are speaking volumes.


http://prisken. free.fr/musique/ Leonard%20Cohen% 20-%20Suzanne. mp3

Took me thirty years to hear that this song was not about anybody else.




Jivano - (aka Ka - the fire which burns me from within)

Happy birthday to you!

Do you need help to blow out the candle ? ;)
Any piece of cake left for me?
Only drowning men can see you?
Never mind, blind men can feel you.
And half blind ones can follow
the smell of the cake.

Michael

Re: You simply follow your feelings 

--- "rpana3" quoted:
>
>
> You simply follow your feelings. And who has said to you
> that it is easy to follow the feelings?

Remembering, quoting, exchanging words about feelings is easier.

Michael

Re: osho's views on god. 


--- The Most Reverend Sarlo <sarlo@...> wrote to Arpana:

   > Well, it's mighty kind of you to take me out of the "preacher"
   > column.

Yes, really, how could one dare call you a preacher!!!


Please give me you seasonal blessings, Your Excellency,
and free my account from moderation-restrictions.
As I see it, you just let two posts pass, but did not
lift the 'on moderation' yet. I mere oversight, I do hope.
Or was it a kind of sign from above? Perhaps you wanted
to talk with me but where too humble to address me directly?
Well, in that case: here I am, with all respect, Your Excellency.


I hope you allow me to weave a veil of silence over the
rest of your posting, from which I quoted above. Probably out
of your love you played the mirror to Pater Arpana's spirit anyway.


Brother Michael

I don't question, that you are a struggling seeker of truth.

What I ask is: did you already find out,
which part of you is struggling,
and which is going for truth?

Fwd: Re: You simply follow your feelings 

Nice pictures, rpana3.
You did them just for me?
Too much honor ;)


Modern copyright shows our schizophrenia and our disruption
with the society, with each other and finally with ourselves.
Instead of producing something for the sheer joy of creating,
we do it for money and prestige. We demand something back.

Like you, rpana3, who demanded appreciation, love and acknowledgement
back for your copy-n-post of Oshos word.

You happened to show pictures of a schizophrenic personality
(may be somebody who tries to become whole again through the
expression of such pictures, maybe somebody who tries to provoke
such healing in the society).

Yet, rpana3, the schizophrenia is in you, if you judge Osho's
consciousness "higher" than your own. And deep down you know that,
I think, because why else react when somebody reminds you that
you copy?

For my taste this reaction of yours was several steps closer to
real feelings than your Osho-copy-n-post before.


michael

Re: Happy birthday to you! 


Belly is where Heaven and Earth meet.
And a meeting place should not be rinky-dink.

Re: Osho says. 


Hi Surendra,

you quote Osho having said:

> "... I create two groups of people around me. One group will be
> exoteric.
> ...
> The other group will be more concerned with the inner world.
> ...
> And, ultimately, the outer group will win, ..."

And then you continue yourself as:

> I do not know but I hope in the case of Osho a balance will
> happen between the two Elements and "Zorba the Buddha" emerges
> as Osho wished. Miracles do happen. :-)

But, Surendra, Zorba was an _individual_, he was not a member of
any group. Just because somebody is singing and dancing he doesn't
become a Zorba.

Jesus said "Many are called and few are coming". Do you think,
those who did not come, who did not move, who did not change
their basic attitude, have become Zorbas? All Sannyassins are
Zorbas - live their life as individuals? Uniformed maroon
skirts and uniformed morone minds create individuals?

No, the discipline and uniforms and the farm experience was
used to block individuality, so that it may become stronger
in the process of breaking out of these spiritual straight jackets.

Yet, what a pity: if one puts too beatiful flowers on
the jackets and uses too beautiful words to convince people
to put them on, then the people will create a cult out of
carrying spiritual blocks around them, enforce them, defend
them and finally die in them.


Dear Surendra, why do you want a balance between Zorba and Buddha?
50% Zorba, 50% Buddha - what a strange mixture. In reality
it's not a mixture of two opposites - it is one and the same.
Zorba was 100% Buddha in my opinion. After all it says
"Zorba the Buddha" and not "Zorba and Buddha". Zorba and Buddha
are only our projections


I cannot imagine that Zorba ever wanted to become a Buddha or
ever wanted to become a Zorba. In my imagination he lived
his life. That was all he did. That was all he ever did.
That's why he is called a Buddha. That's why he never wanted
to become a Buddha. He is the type of man, who burns wooden
Buddha-statues, when it get's cold. Though burning a library
of Osho books is also creating a lot of fire, especially if
it's an inner library, I have heard.



happy new year
michael

Babble 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote:

> I guess you have still a lot of Osho books
> on your shelves ... haha

And I guess, that you use to laugh, when you
are wrong. Most books I still have, I'm not keeping
for myself, especially the "spiritual" books.


> Burning books was never a good idea.

How would you know, if you've not tried it for yourself? ;)

Ali, you often sound, as if you think, you are damn _clever_,
yet it's eye-catching that you block yourself against
the real intelligence in you.


> It is also not the way of the bhakti.

You are not a bhakti and you have yet to find the way of
your own belly - so why do you boast to know the way of
the bhakti?


> And these days it's simpler -
> just a push on the delete button
> and you can burn a whole library.

YOUR library is fire-resistant, stored inside a 2 kg
steel-head and protected by armies of proud and aggressive
ghost riders.

You better burn it yourself.
While I'm just having my second breakfast. :)


Michael
aka Frodo

Re: Osho says. 


What was this, Shantam?
Need a light? A cigar?
An acknowledgement?

Let's check, where you have gone
after your last girlfriend.

I say, unawareness starts with unimportance.
What do you say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_MpZRs7XEw

Re: Osho says. 


--- Anupam Archer <oshoaloka@...> wrote:
>
> But dear ones, isn't the whole concept of Zorba the Buddha about
> being able to absorb wisdom and STILL make love? The new man
> does not see these two things as opposites, but as help-mates.
> The wiser I am, the better my love. And just maybe, the deeper
> my love, the wiser I am? And how on earth can I be either wise
> or loving if I am not in the NOW?



(.D

Osho is dead, Swami Alio lives ... sob, sob ? 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote:

> sure I am bhakti, how else could I enjoy your craziness
> over the years?

Everybody determines himself and his own life thru his decisions,
may they be true or false, conscious or unconscious.

Writing and acting beyong logic is not grazy. In fact,
sticking to logic is grazy in my opinion. Yet, talking
bullshit is not going to lead you beyond the mind.


> ... sob sob

You probably mixed up the email-lists.

You copy N0by's way of writing. But in this
list the acknowledged behaviour is to copy
Sarlo or Osho.


Michael

The question was: Is a dog enlightened?




SURE! A dog is enlightened,
because a dog is always in the WOW!

I found a new quest!!! 


> Joshu (A.D. 778-897) was a famous Chinese Zen Master who lived in Joshu,
> the province from which he took his name. One day a troubled monk
> approached him, intending to ask the Master for guidance. A dog walked
> by. The monk asked Joshu, "Has that dog a Buddha-nature or not?" The
> monk had barely completed his question when Joshu shouted: "WOW!"

Tonight Joshu and I will have gone and see the movie Deja Vu.

Hope he will not put the popcorn-tumbler on
my head again, that might create problems
with the visitors behind us.


This leads me to the next question:

Does popcorn become enlightened
when eaten by a dead Zen-Master?


Michael

Re: Osho says. 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Shantam" <me@...> wrote:
> > I say, unawareness starts with unimportance.
> > What do you say?
>
> Many things one can say about it.
>
> Today I am the mood for this:
>
> Unawareness never "starts"
> It only ends.


Thank you for the answer.

Re: Jivano is dead, Frodo lives in the kindergarden. 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote:
> > You copy N0by's way of writing.
>
> jaja, it is you who thinks i copy ...
> nah ,, so the one who writes 'love',
> has already copied the one who wrote it before?
> this is less than kindergarden intelligence, Frodo.

Defenses.

Re: Osho is dead, Swami Alio lives ... sob, sob ? 


Hi Sarlo,

you are soooo far off with your comments, which you try to make
looking objective, but which are just without deeper feelings.
You like to draw the energy to the mind-level, but that's drawing
it down, and has nothing to do with a detached or "free" attitude.

It looks like it's an obsession. Or perhaps it's a cry for help.
But it's certainly not as wise and as helpful as you think it is.


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, Sarlo <sarlo@...> wrote:

> Suviro's "sob sob" might be said to be a form of copying,
> we have seen it elsewhere. And copy / pasting Osho's words
> is literally copying, though no
> one is pretending even to themselves to act or be like Osho.

Using Osho's words and ideas is much more copying than simply
pretending to be like Him.


> But no one is copying Sarlo here. This is surely a flight
> of . . . well, some kind of mind activity. I am not saying
> this because i am unique and
> uncopyable, just it is not happening.

You like to play the role of a moderator, don't you?
But there is too much judging and correcting others in
your moderation for my taste. Like you did with this post.

I have observed often, that with such posts you try to
steer away from too emotionally loaded topics and try
to relativate standpoints which don't fit into the "usual"
Sannyas point of view (which is often just a limited vision).

As this influence has already sipped deeply into the communication
style of this group and into the selection process of it's members,
it may look like natural for you and as if nobody is copying.

Yet I say: the whole group is mirroring Sarlo, and this is
stronger than it was some years ago.

The result is some sort of "peacefullness", "silence" and
superficiality which comes from unexpressed conflicts and/or
from a selection-process which evolves into a spiritual
mono-culture.


> Blessings to you old warrior,

Warrior? Because I am loud-n-clear and expressive?
I'm just feeling pain, because the situation is as it is.

For a monoculture even an otherwise harmless, normal insect
can become dangerous, because natural individual diversity is
already gone. Nothing to say about a fat, humming beetle like me.



Closing our eyes to our shadows will only create more darkness.



Michael

Re: I found a new quest!!! / i found a new answer!! 


For popeye the solution to EVERY Koan is spinach.
Yet a Koan has only an individual solution.

Yesterday I saw Deja Vu.
This experience can never be repeated.

Vedr. [LivingOsho] Re: I found a new quest!!! / i found a new answer!! 


Tanmayo,


> No experience can ever be repeated.

If that was existentially true for you,
then who would be there to say it?


> It [the experience] only comes
> again and again until it cracks on your head and drips
> into your dawning.

It is not my head which is cracking, it is me.
Ma Dawning is the sister of Sw. Hope.


> Then ready for the next....

Ready? Who? Shadow ready to be replaced by light?
Eye shadow ready to be replaced by a nourishing night cream?
Today's experiences ready to be replaced by tomorrow's?

Identification with experiences is just another
form of staying identified to the experiencer.
But identification is just some complicated form
of robot-reaction of the mind. Useful for daily life,
like glue for the water-bucket.


> love, tanmayo

You sound as if you want a copy of my enlightenment
certificate. To whom shall I send it?


Michael

sob, sob ?


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Dharia" <mapremdharia@...> wrote:
> I am reading your letters and
> all of what you say is a projection.

So you like my movies, although you are all too shy
to admit it. :)

It's great that you burn your candle of spirituality on both
ends, trying to be master and disciple at the same time,
Yet it's a very big candle - I may not live long enough to
see it burn out. But perhaps you might, at least it's my wish
to you that you do.

Happy New Year

Kabir

Re: Cracks 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, Tanmayo <maata4@...> wrote:

> Im talking about life in general, which alone is an
> experience. Within this one big are all the smaller
> experiences, or cracks, which shakes and breaks your
> defenses. Bit by bit, piece by piece, over and over.

I'm just talking about my experiences. The ideas about
something larger come easily to me, as I like to think and
express myself often on higher abstraction levels, but
they are just my ideas after all.

My understanding - if it is founded - is "bottom-up" and
not "top down". Because how should I determine what topmost
concept was the right one? Consequently there is no universal
goal to reach - at least none which I could grasp and understand
really. Understanding is also bound to the specific energy-level
I am in, That is it develops bottom-up. Any extrapolation to an
higher level has proved dramatically incomplete each time.

Just ask some persons what God is for them - I bet you will
get a lot of different answers and none will be your experience.


> Its really just what happens, you know. Its nothing
> spiritual or a goal. Its just like when you eat, you
> shit. You eat again, and shit. This is how life goes
> on giving you cracks. Cracks that dawns on you, opens
> you to a tiny bit stronger foundation to stand in. Inside.

Cracks don't open me. That is goal-oriented thinking
coming in thru the backdoor. I see myself as something
virtual, something made up because it is of pratical nessecity.
So there is no need to open me. Misconcepts need not be
cracked open to let understanding in.

Just understanding myself is more than enough for me.

But we both seem to see cracks and seem to appreciate them.


> > To whom shall I send it?
>
> The one who sees, who speaks, who listen and knows,
> also uses language as part of being in the body.
> Send it to yourself - as a reminder.

You misunderstood me, but that's natural, as I intentionally
left much room for interpretations.

In my communication with you I miss a lot, which you seem to
exclude. I asked you "to whom?" because I don't know you, and
you make yourself not known very well. The only things you show
from yourself are your words. For me that would be much less
than 20% - though I try to use words to transmit the other 80%.

Your answer to that question was rather esotheric / therapist-like
up to now for my feeling. And it contained some salt of competition
or defense.

Obviously many persons in the esotheric/spiritual subculture
are using such teacher-like / "therapeutical" / competition-oriented
responses. You too?


Michael

Re: Osho is dead, Swami Alio lives ... sob, sob ? 


Sarlo said:

> Guess what!?!?! It's a small Osho group.

I say:

No, it is not. It's an Oshoism group.


Greetings
Michael

Re: Osho says.


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Dharia" <mapremdharia@...> wrote:

> If you see a lot of "butt licking" there must be a lot of
> hating brewing somewhere near.

Very true. But why not go one single step farther:

If you see a lot of "beloved, wonderful, beautiful Osho"
here, there must be brewing something else not too far away.


According to my experience there is a lot of subconscious hate
against Osho among Sannyasins.

One packet of that, which is more on the surface, is something
like "Osho, you have talked enough, now you be silent and I
talk about enlightenment, meditation and all the rest. Now
I am the Ma or Master, I am enlightened, I have the higher
consciousness than others ... etc."

The other packet is more below the carpet, because it would
be more painful to admit it: it's the recognition that Osho's
target was it, to bring the majority of His disciples to the
point, where they could experience their ego/stupidity/suffering
as intense as possible. And He did his job very well.
The suppressed shame and pain hinders His Sannyasins to see clearly,
what Osho's teaching was really and how it functioned.
Hence any deeper analysis of what He did is washed away with phrases,
dreams and ignorance (not-wanting-to-know).



> P.S.
> ... I've accumilated some paintings I wish to post on the net,
> since people take them away, I want to have some memory of them.
> What are good free sites to post painting, maybe photos sites,
> that have big enough "space" to view the pictures?

Did you look at flickr ( http://flickr.com/ ) ?

Re: Osho says. 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote:

> Why don't you simply say,
> YOU have a lot of subconscious hate
> against Osho.

Because I went through this phase. It is no longer
the case for me. There is no hate left towards Osho.

> And now when Osho
> is dead; you project your hate
> against the sannyasins.

Not at all. But now, after having been through
that frustration, I know how I have felt subconsciously
and I know how Osho worked on us and I am thankful
for that work.

I don't love each and every Sannyasin, in fact even towards
those whom I like or even love, I don't allways feel the
same, but why not?

At the same time I can see your situation regarding
Osho and the other masters you may have met or resisted
in your life. And I share my experience and insights.
If you think, they are simply wrong, there would be no
need for you to defend against them and especially
there would be no need for a "counter-projection".

> This would be more honest in my eyes.

There was never a single bit of dishonesty in my
behaviour towards you.


Michael

Greed is greed

It's secondary what we are greedy for - money, sex, power, whatever.
It's always greed. The object changes, but the basic attitude remains
the same.

And the most tricky greediness is the greediness for spiritual
development, experience of god, enlightenment.

without a title

(A)
The so called Arising of the Kundalini is nothing but the bioenergy
raising above the former unconscious limits induced by society,
education, fear, pain, etc. It's just like raising the power level
to it's individual maximum - beyond the restrictions of the ego.
As the "normal" power level is well below 5% this raise is equivalent
to switching the power from off to ON.

(B)
Wether the name Kundalini is used or not, wether it's spoken about it
at all or kept completely esotheric: whenever individual growth
happens, a raise of the bioenergy-level is bound to be there.
Deep change - big raise and vice versa - with the geatest changes
happening in the energetical and nervuous systems.

(C)
Bhagwan stopped the raising of the Kundalini in the early 1970ies.
His Inner Circle was basically complete; the Poona Ashram could be
started. Raising the Kundalini in all of His Sannyasins (i.e. in the
later coming Sannyasins also) would not have been tolerated by the
politicians, He said. As a camouflage He told the late-comers
"I have softer techniques now". The Arising of the Kundalini was
generally no longer initiated or supported after 1974 by Rajneesh.

Re: Osho says. Copyrights and Trademarks 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote:

> It is simply a "All or Nothing" thing.
> Either all is spiritual or nothing is spiritual.

If all is spiritual, it's senseless to call some+-theing spiritual.
If notheing is spiritual, it's also useless to say so.

Hence both of your cases make the discussion about spirituality
completely unneccessary, inpractical, illusionary, essestially boring,
fruitless and without possible result.

Consequently this whole list is just mindfuck.

Your logic just dug itself a big hole and jumped into it.

Mindlessness is not being beyond the mind,
but being too much in the mind.

:)

Coke, Fanta, Chocolate, Hot Dogs, Cold Beer and Osho Books!

"A special transmission outside the scriptures;
No dependence upon words and letters;
Direct experience of the soul of man;
Seeing into one's nature and realizing one's Buddhahood."

(Based on Bodhidharma's message when he came to China)

Spam n Eggs fresh from the kitchen 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Shantam" <me@...> wrote:

> > This is very interesting! Tip of the hat! :)
> > Nobody thought to a spam-multiplier instead? :)
>
> What do you mean with "spam-multiplier" ?

This is really becoming an interesting dialogue about
the functioning of communication and consciousness.
I like it. :)

I see strong parallels to the situation of Neo-Sannyas.


Greetings
Michael
<also.me@...>

If you speak German...

...dann interessiert dich vielleicht die folgende Website:

http://www.bodhidharma.org


Die wurde soeben gestartet. Damit geht (der deutsche) Bodhidharma,
mein Spiritueller Freund, zum ersten Mal seit 6 oder 7 Jahren wieder
an die Öffentlichkeit.

Viel Spass!


Gruss
Michael

Re: Take note 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, Tanmayo <maata4@...> wrote:

> The word 'suchness' is of immense importance in
> Buddha's approach towards reality. The word
> 'suchness' is as important in Buddhism as 'God' is in
> other religions.

The word may have importance in Buddha _teachings_ or _lectures_
or _sutras_ (as far as they are written down). But his
approach to reality was sitting-walking-sitting-sitting...
years of sitting (as far as we know about his life).
I doubt that any words of Buddha were written down
during his approach to reality, because he was sitting alone.

A word has only importance for the "mind".

> ...
> Existence is, but mind has disappeared. That state of
> no-mind is called suchness.

You write from own experience, Tanmayo?

Otherwise this statement would just be some words uttered about
another word, and although this other word is a name for a
word-less state, the statement says nothing about that word-less
state itself.


Using the sword of intellect
to scoop water of wisdom
is not in itself wise.
Yet it helps not to drown,
but such security-thinking
is even more unwise.


Michael

Re: Greed is greed 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, tara madeva <ma_devatara@...>
wrote:
>
> Longing for goodness/god-ness/god
> is not greed

Show your face, please. Thank you.

Michael

Re: If you speak German... 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Pavitro" <singsang@...> wrote:
>
> Hallo Michael,
>
> na, daß Du mein H&J-Design so minutiös übernommen hast, nehme
> ich mal als Kompliment :D
> Wo Du doch sonst bestimmt keine Schwäche für Plagiate hast ;-)

Das war nicht meine Entscheidung und ist auch nicht meine Arbeit.
Ich bin lediglich der ISP für die Website und habe am Inhalt und
Layout nicht mitgearbeitet. Gottseidank, denn wenn ich Design mache,
sieht's aus wie von einem Programmierer <urgs>.

Ich persönlich denke eher, dass Bodhidharma mit dem gleichen
Layout darlegen wollte, dass er und Andrees Elten für die gleiche
"Firma" arbeiten. :)

Schreib doch deine Meinung an die Design-Crew, wenn du magst.


Gruss
Michael

Re: Take note 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, the buff <spiritual_buffalo@...>
wrote:

> contemplating the word 'suchness' may take you closer than
> observing the buddhas outer activities.



Hi Ego-Buffalo!

Meditation cannot be done, cannot be made, cannot be created.
While un-intentional contemplation is called "understanding" by me.

Anybody who wants to come closer to himself is schizo.
To dream about some "development" out of this illness
makes the split only worse.


Such said Michael

Re: Greed is greed 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, Tanmayo <maata4@...> wrote:

> But if you know longing, you surely know the
> difference between longing and greed.

I know the difference of a broken foot and a broken arm.

While you write "BROKEN ARM", "BROKEN FOOT", "LOVE"
and "GET WELL SOON" unto the casts I am happy that
I can move again without them.

Re: Take note 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, Tanmayo <maata4@...> wrote:

> Holy shit!!! That whole thing is a quote from Oshos
> book Diamond Sutra. It said on the top of the mail,
> you must have missed it.

Not at all. YOU quoted.

Re: Greed is greed 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "hans" <hans_vandergugten@...>
wrote:

> Do you have a 'genuine longing' for her face?

No, Sir.

> Or are you greedy?

Not more than usually.

> Greedy for what?
> As you said to start with, greed is greed.
> Yet it would be interesting what your driving force is,
> don't you agreed?

I get "a feeling" as I call it, when I see the face of a person.
Or I could also say: I get more information about the person.
Sometimes I have that quality from a prolonged dialogue already,
but the face gives me additional information and gives it
often immediatedly.

With that "contact" my Buddha can interact more directly
with the person; without it I'm more "lost", and hesitate
or hold back to talk about more important matters.


In short: the soul can be seen through the eyes.



Now back to you, Hans:
----------------------

An Ego thinks, it can hide behind words, ideas, concepts,
it is gaining from or is uncovered by information.
But the reality is always there. If it's hidden as deep
as possible, or camouflaged by fast talking and thinking,
than at least that hiding (and often the associated pain)
can be seen. We carry all our trips with us as well as all
our possibilities.


What will we do with all the information we get daily, Hans,
if we are not ready to get touched by Life where it hurts?


Michael

Re: Greed is greed 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote:

> Ah yes, i see you are back from the hospital.

While you avoid going into it?


> Did you not fall in a hole lately? :-))

Not into those, you are digging ;)


Michael

Re: Greed is greed 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Shantam" <me@...> wrote:

> Why this greed to see her "face"
>
> Isn't it enough we see yours?

"We" - are you talking for all others?

Regarding u, Shantam, the answer is:
Yes, t'would be enuff, if you had your eyes open.

But, Shantam, I think, if you had your eyes open,
you would also want to see the faces of persons,
with whom you communicate. Otherwise the only
open thingymagic is your Word-Processor.

:)

Michael

-- sponsored advertisement --
For a free open-source wordprocessor
see: http://www.openoffice.org/

Re: our daily greed give us, Lord 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote:

> not really -
> but with some intelligence one can avoid
> treatment by Dr. B. and co. -
> some fools who pretend to know -
> and know nothing.

Hi Ali! Are you speaking about me an my spiritual friends
"who pretend to know - and know nothing" ???


What do I don't know?


How it feels to live as a Sannyasin?

How it feels to go "The Easy Way" as a Sannyasin?

How it feels to feel the longing become stronger
for years and years?

How it feels to try one meditation after the other,
but never experience Meditation as described in the lectures?

How it feels to do one group after the other, come out blissed
and are back to the old feeling some days later?

How it feels to get one of the tiny and rare glimpses of something
beyond - like a mule is shown a carrot before it's nose,
and then you have to go on the next years with the suspicion that
you are following a self-created illusion only?

How it feels to speak about meditation and enlightenment
whenever somebody is listening and hypnotize myself
subconsciously, that I know what enlightenment is?

How it feels being completely alone?

How it feels having to admit, that I didn't "get it"?

How it feels when you have to give it up, but simply CANNOT?

How it feels, when you recognize that there is no more enough
time in this life for a second failure?

How it feels, when the wish for suicide is
the most important thought for months?

How it feels to surrender to a living, present, demanding master
without allowing yourself to say "NO" ?

How it feels to live in spiritual communities for years,
where no hiding or lying is tolerated?

How it feels to go "The Hard Way", as Choegyam Trungpa calls it?


Tell me, you arrogant bossy bastard: WHAT DO I DON'T KNOW ?



Michael

Re: our daily greed give us, Lord 


Good morning, Anupam,

--- you wrote:

> ... this message touched me deeply.

So did your answer. Thank you.

> ... You said it all so eloquently, all my 30 years are right
> there in what you have written. Everything. There is
> nothing more to say, except hello fellow traveler, beloved
> friend, survivor and devotee. Your love for Osho comes
> through like a flood and washes me.

I don't love Osho, I don't even know him personally.
And my relationship with people is often more of friendship
than of love - I'm just that kind of person, you know,
who lives friendship rather than love - a typical Aquarian.
The Love, which I feel, is not mine. I feel loved - that is,
if I let it in, if I happen to be open for it. And that love
is certainly not coming from Osho - He may have felt the same
love, but it was not His, as it is not mine. That's how I see it.

Yet there is more to say, I think.
We are not yet at the final bus stop.

Everybody has his/her way of seeing the things, experienceing
and expressing. Some go for love, some for awareness, some
call it God, some peace or silence. And there is certainly
more to experience, more to say. The journey does not stop
at Osho. In fact as I see it, his teaching was much to much
concentrating around his person. For some Sannyasins (and
I don't mean you here, Anupam) this has already led to loss
of reality. Life goes on, Love goes on. Osho has to be dropped
as a master, has to be dropped as a personal reference for all
and everything. Especially he has to be dropped as a Guide for
spiritual development, because such a Guide must allways be
a living person with the possibility for intense and deep and
individual interaction.

Osho is a milestone on the path of Life,
and a Milestone does not make a good necklace.

If we Sannyassins really want to follow Osho,
we have to let loose of Him and become more open
for all other possibilities of Life and of ourselves.



I'll make a tea now and drink it to your health.

Michael

Tea for two exponent 32 


--- tara madeva <ma_devatara@...> wrote:
>
> Michael I need tea now too but first
> your point of view is different from mine

Great, how is yours?

Re: Tea for two exponent 32 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, tara madeva <ma_devatara@...>
wrote:

> So I am myself and he is a visitor who comes when
> he has time/feels to
>
> I see him as inside but I have my own Being

I see. Perhaps we have similiar experiences, perhaps differnt
ones, may I clarify that?

Why do you call the visitor Osho, and not -say-
God, or Love or Higher Self? And what makes you sure,
that it is a visitor and not an inner state of yourself?


Michael

Please love me, but leave my ego intact. 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Nirguna" <anandnirguna@...> wrote:

> Eat your Knoedel and Sauerkraut and drink your Weissbier.

Sauerkraut I had yesterday, the rest has
too much carbonhydrates.


Nirguna,

somehow with all of your posts I get the feeling, that you
like to fight and/or provoke me. That's, ok, if you feel
like (an I seldome miss a chance for a good fight).
But at the same time you do seem to protect yourself
against provocations, and that's rather boring, Nirguna.

Did I only overlook or forget the postings where you
showed yourself vulnerable, or is it your habbit to poke
at the bull from behind a thick protective wall only?
Then you are going to miss the best part of insults:
the healing pain of being insulted yourself.


When I did my best to piss at everybody's legs during the
last 14 years or so, I always got my beating back and I hope,
I didn't run away too often. Now the negativity I'm putting
out as well as the one I'm getting back, is becoming a little
less (not easy to believe, but that's how it is).
Especially: it hurts less. And I can now even talk about it.


What about you? Did your attitude carry you far enough out
of the suffering zone were it hurts, when people talk or
think negatively about you? Or do you still need your walls?


Michael

Our daily cake - where is it? 


Dear Dharia,

--- you wrote:

> ... prems walk the path of devotion.

Really? Devotion?

I allways thought, Prems are the relationship specialists ;)


Dharia, I have no wish to speak with you about any
spiritual themes. Cake-recipes, yes, computers, sure,
but spirituality? My God spirituality, I'm fed up with
spirituality!

Everything is natural. We may not understand it,
we may never be able to understand it, we may
not even have the slightest idea, that it exists,
but it's natural. No single piece is missing.
The universe is complete - that's it's nature.


"You ask me a riddle and I reply:
cobblestone, cobblestone, cobblestone pie!"
-- The Tao of Pooh --


Greetings
Michael

Re: Have a cup of tea (was Please love me ...) 


--- "Nirguna" <anandnirguna@...> wrote:

> Life is simple.

If one is open, yes.


I did myself often "beat on the bush"
in the past - mainly to check, who was true
and who was really interested in me (and not
only interested in receiving some flattery).

The coolness, you pretend to have, is only
skindeep for my feeling, Nirguna. Obviously
we are good mirrors for each other regarding
aggression.

You didn't answer my post, you reacted.
And you changed my subject line from

Please love me, but leave my ego intact.

into "Have a cup of tea". Who do you think
needs to calm down with a cup of tea?

You bark at a mirror, Nirguna.
Playing cool and pretend to ourselves, that the
other is the "bad guy" will only prolong the
lies of life, the suffering of not being ourselves
truefully.

That's my experience.


Michael

Re: Tea for two exponent 32 


Hi Tara and list,

--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, tara madeva <ma_devatara@...>
wrote:

> My experience is that osho came to visit me on the same
> day that he left his body

So did Bhagwan perhaps in my Sannyas ceremony, and my step-father
short after his death for my feeling. Or Michael Barnett induced
into me (at least it felt so), what I should do or say during one
of his groups. But theese have been feelings, which I could not
verify.

I also have more verifyable experiences where the spiritual trainer
contacted me on a non-physical level and corrected something
in my energy-system. Or he realized, that I needed help,
and called me on the phone.

But most often it was not Osho in my case, it were several
people with open and strong energy (or sometimes under the
influence of conciousness-expanding drugs).

It even happened the other way around; when I was responsible
for a person, I awoke in the middle of the night because I
had the feeling, he might need my help. So I went over to his
room. He was awake and in deep darkness, with all kind of
aggression phantasies and the like. We talked, and he was
happy that I had come, he said in the end.

Consequently this contact on the astral level is not happening
with Osho only, it's a natural human phenomenon.
Zen-people even have a name for it: i-shin-den-shin.

What's special is that with Osho this also seems to happen
sometimes and with some of his disciples after his physical
death.

Yet there has also been an experience in my life, where I thought,
that such a connection was happening, but when I double-checked
with the other person, it turned out, that that contact of mine was
probably rather with my higher self and certainly not with the other
person.

So I interprete my feelings and experiences with caution
and I do remind every Sannyasin not to believe that such things
are possible with Osho only. In fact our _unbiased_ awareness and
sensitivity in non-physical realms are much more important than
the experiences themselves in my opinion.


> There is always a place for him within.
> My experience is not logic or theory.

Yes, I understand. Thank you for sharing.


Greetings
Michael

Spirituality - the last night mare. 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Shantam" <me@...> wrote:

> Faces are easily found on the internet:

Yes and egos also. All sizes and colors.
But for egos with all kinds of pseudo-
therapeutical excuses and defenses,
a so called "spiritual" list is a must.
No ego is bigger or more tricky/sticky
than a spiritual one.

I wonder how some of these super-egos
can manage not to cry the whole day,
because I feel pain, when such masks
with their spiritual labels on them
address me. How much more pain must
be behind that me@mask, if it's owner
clings to it and defends it with so much
effort and force.


Michael

11716

Re: Tea for two exponent 32


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote:

> > Consequently this contact on the astral level is not happening
> > with Osho only, it's a natural human phenomenon.
> > Zen-people even have a name for it: i-shin-den-shin.
>
> basically it is an energyfield -
> or you can call it groupsoul -

Yes.

> it's all what a sangha is about

No. It's happening everywhere.
It's a natural and global phenomenon.
Animals feel and react to Energy,
plants do. It seems, that only humans
need to learn it again.

But of course delusions of Sannyas
don't let you see it happen anywhere
else but in the spiritual circus.
 

back

11720

If I am too hard for you, you are too soft with yourself. 


Hi Archan,

--- you seem to have written:

> You are so hard, Michael.


Michael Barnett published the following 1989 in "Modern Times"
(retranslation from the German "Ferien in Teufels Küche"):


-- quote by Michael Barnett --


Will you do it? Really?

"Yes, if it's not too hard."

But it is too hard.


-- end of quote --


Now what to do? Behave softer? Towards whom?
Play down the hardship verbally?
99% of all the teachers and disciples are doing that already.

The patient is not only getting anesthesia during the operation,
it's nessessary to give him pain killers, tranquilizers
and happy-makers before he even considers thinking about
to come near the hospital. Even in email-list like this one
it is practically impossible to speak about what was really
happening behind the stage of Neo-Sannyas.

In the 1960ies that was totally different. It was common
knowledge, that spiritual development was nothing for the
softies. A Monastery was not a place to come out great.

But 35 years of spirituality-marketing changed that totally.

Now it's time to deliver. 35 years of tranquilizers are enough.


The divine is everywhere, being whole is the inherent nature
of everything and everybody. Freedom, Love and Happyness is
the very stuff we are made of.


Hence there is nothing to achieve, reach or get.

WE are the problem.

And don't misunderstand me: I didn't say
"we HAVE a problem", because that would just
open another round of escaping into therapy-like
activities. I said: "we ARE the problem".


I'm just listening to 'Down Under' from Men at Work
http://www.mp3raid.com/search/download-mp3/1/men_at_work/2.html

"... where women glow and men thunder ..."

You want to glow? Did you ever read "The daughter of Fire"
by Irina Tweedie? That's what is happening everywhere and
what is needed to get some freedom from the ego.
Falling in love with the master is the easy part,
getting rejected, depressed, defamed and experience one's
hate is the operation, medicine and healing.


Greetings
Michael

A Cuckoo in the Emergency Ward 


--- Archan wrote:

> ... He has made it so clear that He does want us to reach
> the point where we no longer regard Him as more than a friend.
> So why do I still use capitals when I use the pronoun for His
> name? ... I use it always when I (i) refer to Loa Tzu or
> Buddha or Bodhidharma, or Rinzai, or Rabia, or on and on and on.

This means implicitly that
you have not yet become yourself.
You still project unto Osho, Rinzai, Rabia
what you miss in yourself.
You think, they are special.
You think, it is special to be a Buddha.

And that's Osho's fault with His hypnotizing
endless goddamn spiritual marketing talks
about Buddhas and their Enlightenments.


> Anyway, Michael, we know Osho wanted us to be open to the
> Universe, we know He did not want us to be His disciples,
> but He gave us time. Can't we give other people time?
> They'll get there.

How much longer are you going to live?
Another 35 years?

Sure?


Michael

Re: If I am too hard for you, you are too soft with yourself. 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, the buff <spiritual_buffalo@...>
wrote:

> In English, there are two different (though related)
> meanings of the word hard. Archan's use was as the
> opposite of softness, MB uses it in the sense
> of difficult.

Yes. thank you. And the ego is avoiding both,
hence my texts remains valid with both meanings.


> You remind me a lot of U. G. Krishnamurti... :)

Thank you. But a rather tragic role ...
I hope, I've more to laugh about than he did.
Has there ever been a picture on which he was smiling?


Michael

Re: To Michael Zimmermann 


That's a nice game for a change - somebody who
asks to be brainshrinked on this list. :)

--- "Dharia" <mapremdharia@...> wrote:

> Could you please psycho analyze me?

No, and I'm not sorry about that.

But I have my feelings, about what is BELOW your psyche
(which I remember having told you allready in the beginning,
but as we both have forgotten, it can easily be told again).


Your energy is a natural upsetter, as I see it, and wants
to "work" especially in the therapeutical/spiritual environment.
One of your favourite techniques is to "play stupid" and ask
people to explain something to you as if you didn't knew better
yourself. This is nothing bad, it brings a lot of life into an
otherwise deadly boring situation. But it's not nice towards
the ego, of course. But who cares about the ego? ;)


> I remember Krishnamurti saying that it is the incomplete
> that wishes to isolate itself,

Really? You must have been a little girl at that time,
and you still remember him and even had such a deep
discussion with him about individuality and anger etc.
Or was it a past life?


> sometimes I tell myself how people in India live
> in groups and how some gurus like
> Ananda Mai or Ramakrishna etc., always had someone
> around, but it annoys me if there is
> another person in the same room doing something,
> I just wish to be left alone.

So do I sometimes. Then I leave or send the other
away (BTW. a very effective ego destruction technique
when done in the middle of the night with your lover,
who just came 100 km by car to see you :).


> I often like to be left alone and I don't like talking
> either. I hate visiting other people or when people
> come over, it means I should stop meditating and engage
> in a stupid loud conversation.

How to avoid a stupid conversation I don't know, probably
one needs at least two non-stupid people first. Even if I
could find two, how would I make sure, that they are not
stupid, without engaging into a conversation with them first
(and then there would allways be me in the conversation also)?

But how to create loud conversations I'm not without
some expertise:

+ Interruption is a must. The energy to say something must
be blocked to build up strength.
+ Screaming is healthy.
+ Throwing things trains the physical coordination of both partners.
+ Best time is 02:00 to 04:00 am. Resonance through the
backyard is best at that time.
+ An interesting theme is needed, which grabs the neighbours
attention too. Telling your lover, that you are pregnant
for example is too mundane - except if from another man.
+ Avoid balconies or kitchen with knifes, otherwise the
conversation might become frustratingly short.
+ Apologize and fuck afterwards with open windows. The neighbors
need that phase for stress reduction. Their shouted encouregement
and applause is your well earned reward.


HTE (Hope That Enlightened)
Michael

11730

Re: Cake ? Try this non fattening alternative Michael


--- "ma_devatara" <ma_devatara@...> wrote:
>
> I think it was you wanting to cut osho out completely that I first
> responded to but Archan's last post about him being a friend does
> not seem too out of step with my term, visitor.
>
> So can you logically knock him out as my friendly visitor?

From your point of view Osho is your master (I assume).
In this function Osho is blocking the space for yourself.
There is nothing more valuable in the universe than you.
Osho can step aside or visit some other person while you
clean your house for the last visitor, for yourself.
 

back

Re: If I am too hard for you, you are too soft with yourself. 


--- Anupam Archer <oshoaloka@...> wrote:

> YOU don't know what anybody needs, you don't have the answer.

How would you know, that the answer for somebody on this
list is NOT coming thru what I do or say?
At least for me it is.

The only thing we both can do, is to follow our own insight.


> I sure don't want to make fun of them and tell them they
> don't need a master. How the hell do I know what they need?

How the hell do you know what others DON'T need?


> Maybe they need a master more than anything in the world.

Maybe, they need themselves more than anything in the world.

The master you protect is YOUR vision of Osho.
It's not even Osho, it's YOUR OSHO. I have another vision.
Why should my vision be false and yours true?


> When I said don't be so hard, I meant, get yourself out of
> the equation. That's all.

Good idea. Walk your talk first.


> Being so heavy with your own opinions might send real
> seekers away when they would benefit greatly from
> listening to Osho.

While some other real seeker might be glued to his chair
with all the mumbo-jumbo you carry around in your head.

The spiritual drug is much more dangerous than
any chemical one, because one does not even know
that it is a drug. That's my experience.


After all we are talking about a master,
who insisted again and again,
THAT ONLY A LIVING MASTER CAN HELP.
The consequence? He is just dead
and all of a sudden he did not die?
It's a wonder I cannot understand.


> I don't understand where you are coming from, Michael.
> Be who you are, enjoy, but why preach at people?

Preach? No. I try to destroy illusions.
And that's how I am. A born sportsspoil.

If there are termites in your church,
it's not the ant-eaters fault.


> If they are here they are probably interested in Osho.

When they are here, they are perhaps trapped in a sort of
religion allready. They allready got 600 books of answers,
before they even started asking. Beautiful books, beautiful
words, and a whole bunch of people to defend them.

But a book is a book is a book.
Termites eat books.
Ant-eaters eat termites.


> So let them be.

Truth can neither be destroyed nor created by words.
But dreams and illusions can.

If you really go for the existential freedom of your
fellow humans, let each of them choose what is wrong
and what is right for himself.


Archan, you sound as if you panic when somebody says
anything against Osho. Osho himself said totally
different things about his teachings. For example he
was sure, that his words MUST be questioned and speaken
against after he is no more. And he is right, that's one
of the things where I agree totally with him.

Neo-Sannyas has already drifted too much into the direction
of an undead book-, tape- and CD-religion. It's high time
that the frozen spiritual structures within Neo-Sannyas
become flexible again. You need not do that. But one or the
other might use my arguments differently than you do.

What is your panic might be the other's room to breath again.
Mine for example. And the space to look for myself without
anybody telling me where to look and what to see. Why should
I not share such a space?


> Jeez, Michael. Get real.

I am. And I am a Sannyasin, too.
Not a perfect one, sure.
But a real one. And a living one.
But not living on books or using
lectures for a brain.


your turn. :)

Michael

11746

Re: A Cuckoo in the Emergency Ward


Hi Surendra,

I'm here on my own. And by the way I don't agree
to several things, Bodhidharma is doing or saying.

> ... But here on this list you seem to have chosen a
> role which is very fanatic, you refuse to accept that
> others can be on a different path.

400 individuals all on the same path and going
into the same direction? Pretty crowded.
Or is this some sort of military march?

For my feeling, the fanatism has it's source within
this group. I'm just good at provoking it.


> You sound like a Muslim who believes in that
> Allha is God and the only God "La illah il Allah".

Indeed I find "La illah il Allah" a beautiful sentence
and a wonderful meditation-exercise. But I have not built
the two towers with which you obstruct the flight of my ideas.

Please take your responseability back and accept
yourself as the source of your feelings.


> You are on a mission Wolfgang has given to his disciples,

Bullshit.


> he once said to Anandesh that he will not go public unless
> sannyasins are awakened from the hypnosis Osho has put them into.

Sannyas is not that important for Bodhidharma, I think.


> Which you call here in this mail "His hypnotizing endless
> goddamn spiritual marketing talks about Buddhas and their
> Enlightenments."

Yes. Let's not forget, I know by own experience, how Oshos
lectures, teachings and Ashrams worked. My experience, yes.
But an experience and not just talk.


> It will be great if you will be here as a friend and
> disciple of Wolfgand AKA Bodhidharma and not an ex
> Osho sannyasins, it does not fit you, you are not one
> to ride two horses, please one master at a time.

I'm riding my own bull and don't follow a master
who could've ever been two. If you let yourself be
dominated by your own dualistic thinking,
it's certainly not provoked or supported by me.


> There are in my experience only two basic paths,
> Meditation and Love.

There is no path, there is only the bull going
where he wants to.



> And I think this is your sannyas darshan but
> I might be wrong.

Thank you for trying to find my personal Darshan,
but I was not initiated in a Darshan. Initiation
happened near Munich, I had not seen Bhagwhan in person.
And I was given the name Sangit Jivano - music and life -
together with a sheet of paper where the following
was typed (quoting from memory):

Sannyas is trusting in Life,
relaxing in Life, resting in Life.
Nowhere to go, nothing to achieve.
Then the whole energy is available
to dance and sing and celebrate.


I'm not an Anand, I'm not that intelligent,
and not that depressed either. ;)

And I think, dancing with Sannyas friends
is not a bad idea. If they only had not
so many bugs in their heads...


Michael


 

back

11768

Re: A Cuckoo in the Emergency Ward


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote:

> Hm, did you ever see him in person?
> Poona, Oregon or so?

Yes, later. In the lectures. Closest I was during
a time of 9 months in Poona II (with a one month
interruption in Thailand to get a new visa).

So I would classify myself as a typical member
of the outer circle regarding Neo-Sannyas.

Michael

back

11769

Re: Greed is greed / need is need 


--- "hans" <hans_vandergugten@...> wrote:

> > And the most tricky greediness is the greediness for spiritual
> > development, experience of god, enlightenment.
>
>
>
> This is by now the most dogged prejudice amongst seekers.
> May be true for some at certain moments, but why the need
> to make such pompous statements out of the blue?
>
> Or is blue the wrong color?



It is my experience. And from the same experience I say:
you will not get it, while you are still in it.



Perhaps you might get a glimpse of your subconscious
mind in action, when you look at your choice of words
and compare them with the plain facts of your statement.


Greetings
Michael

11777

Re: Greed is greed / need is need 


--- "ma_devatara" <ma_devatara@...> wrote:
>
> [about spiritual greediness]
>
> So what you describe is somewhere I have been,
> and so I see the danger. And this very next moment
> I could go back there so thanks for
> the warning . It isn't like once you're out its final.
> I think this may be where it goes wrong, as it is said
> it comes in by the back door.
>
> So it is a good reminder to all including your self!

I's an ego thing, hence as long as I am, fear, greed
and suffering will be there.

But the spiritual ego can be lost before the normal one,
if one is determined.

The idea of a back door is already part of the spiritual
programming. Whenever there is a front personality, which
wants to improve itself, a backdoor is bound to be there.
Every tension creates an urge for release.

Hence your statement about a backdoor is self-fulfilling.


Michael

Re: If I am too hard for you, you are too soft with yourself. 


--- "hans" <hans_vandergugten@...> wrote:

> Both books contain a lot of the usual indian guru crap.

Yes. That's OUT for me too. Or as I'd say it:
that's part of the dark millenium we just left.


> Why does it HAVE to be rough?


Without any particular order, evaluation or filter:

a)
because the ego is rough, ruthless and cold like stone.
b)
because our present environment consists of false softness.
c)
because we are programmed to remain soft childs, and the
programming needs to be overcome.
d)
because I like to be loud at unpredictable moments,
and energetically suppressed persons react negatively to that.
e)
because we need to express all of our feelings and not only the
"positive" ones. As the negative ones have been repressed
most, they come out first.
f)
because the suppression of ourselves happened in painful,
traumatic moments or during endless and hopeless years,
the energy release has strong pain connotation.


Michael

11781

Why does it HAVE to be rough? - continued



> Without any particular order, evaluation or filter:
>
> a)
> because the ego is rough, ruthless and cold like stone.
> b)
> because our present environment consists of false softness.
> c)
> because we are programmed to remain soft childs, and the
> programming needs to be overcome.
> d)
> because I like to be loud at unpredictable moments,
> and energetically suppressed persons react negatively to that.
> e)
> because we need to express all of our feelings and not only the
> "positive" ones. As the negative ones have been repressed
> most, they come out first.
> f)
> because the suppression of ourselves happened in painful,
> traumatic moments or during endless and hopeless years,
> the energy release has strong pain connotation.

g)
because ego is elevating itself above nature,
it will have to be pulled down from it's pedestal,
and that is felt as painful, shameful etc. This process
is supported on the energetical level by our environment
- job gets lost, girl/boyfriend ends the relationship
in the most painful way possible, money is lost, friends are
leaving, things get stolen, car is wracked, bank account
gets confiscated etc. We will experience that as if the
whole world is against us.
h)
because during the rising our nature will get rid of the
unnatural parts in us we will experience this transition as
being against us, though in fact _we_ are against our nature.
But it will be a fight in the beginning - a fight which we
cannot win.
i)
the Buddha will train us to trust him unconditionally. The
traing-situations are especially tailored to each person and
hence 100% trust is individually needed. That is not experienced
as easy. When we fail the tests, it will even become less easy.
h)
part of the inner cleansing is the "dark night of the soul"
- see the literature.
i)
the rising bioenergetic level will bring suppressed negativity
and illness to the outbreak.
j)
with the rising sensitivity the soul will start balancing Karma.
k)
adjusting the body to the higher energy levels is experienced
painful in itself; years of intense migraine for example are not
uncommon. But that's one of the lesser problems.


Greetings
Michael
 

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No awakening before we are ready, please. 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "sacoswami" <sacoswami@...> wrote:

> Beloved Michael,

Breathing Anurag,


> I would not concern myself with being greedy for enlightenment.

That's because you are it allready.


> ... I would
> suggest you read my book Awakening on Rebelliousspirit.com, ...

Certainly.

As you are allready awakened, may I suggest that you
wash the dishes, clean the house and make the coffee,
while I stay a little longer in bed with your female
disciples?

Call us when breakfast is ready. But not before we are.

Michael

Re: Why does it HAVE to be rough? - continued 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, rb2lb2@... wrote:
>
>
> > Michael

Hi R2D2 !

I don't want to say anything personal, as I don't have
the slightest idea who you are, and what you write sounds
like a situation where small talk is not enough.

Why not contact that teacher?


Michael

Re: Greed is greed / need is need 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Dharia" <mapremdharia@...> wrote:
>
> You say:
> But the spiritual ego can be lost before the normal one,
> if one is determined.
>
> What do you mean? Who is determined?

That's question a)

> Osho said it many times, he said that the mind is the ego.
> When the mind drops the ego is no more.

This is quote b)

> I hear you talking about ego all the time and it seems to
> me that 'ego' is just an imaginery
> enemy you created in your own head.

This is your position c)




This is often your communication-style, Dharia.

a) you ask something as if you want to know.
b) you select a more or less adequate master's quote from
your memory of master's quotes.
c) you answer yourself and/or doubt and/or falsify in advance
anything which the asked person(s) might answer - often twisted
through your prejudices and half-knowledges.

You will never learn anything new that way.
Your cup is full. Perhaps a porcelaine-specialist
might be helpful, to create more room in it? ;)





The above is my answer.

Michael
Your friendly elefant.

Re: Greed is greed / need is need 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Dharia" <mapremdharia@...> wrote:
>
> Beloved Michael,
>
> Neither spiritual, nor non-spiritual ego can be lost through
> determination. That is why I asked you who is determined?

That instance who's existance your ego is programmed to
ignore completely. That very thingamagic is it, who is
hindering you to see or admit it's existence.
Hence this thingamagic determines when you will regognize
it's existance.

You don't believe it exists, because it is programming your
feelings, thoughts and insights the way it wants it.

In other words: you are playing a 24/7/365 hide-and-seek
drama with yourself.

So where is the problem?


> Ego is an illusion, what is needed is simply an observation.
> I get caught up in the ego, when I am not aware, when I am
> not alert and attentive, with attention the ego ceases to
> be.

You are the ego and you are programming yourself not to
recognize anything else.

Again: where is the problem?


> I am not interested in arguing with you Michael,
> it is a waste of time. All the best to you.

Again method a), b) and finally c).

What a circus-number!



Can elefants do summersaults?
Anybody knows a porcelainshop,
which I might use for training?

Michael

Shit is ... 


From my basic medical training:

Shit is something which is at the wromg place.

For example, if after an operation the digestive
system is functioning again, that is no shit, that's
great news for doctors and nurses - they are waiting
for it. However shameful it might be for the patient
having to use the bedpan for example.

On the other hand, if a pair of scissors is not
where it's supposed to be, that's big shit.


On the psychological level this is the same.
Unfelt feelings become shit. Because feelings
are there to be experienced completely and
consciously.

A suppressed feeling becomes a neurosis - a small
feeling becomes a small unconsciousness, big feelings
become big ones. That's shit.

When the neurotic encapsulation breakes open again and
the original feeling comes out as anger, pain, love,
aggression, whatever it was - that's not shit,
that's great news, however painful/shameful it may be
for the ego at that moment.





Has anybody seen my tea cup?

Michael

Dear Osho, 


thank you for sharing.

It looks like you send out the bulbs,
while the technicians are sitting in Pune
and New York, playing the Zen-Tarot and
counting the money only.

Now we are having dark bulbs all over the planet,
and all of them are talking about enlightenment,
because they had a short glimps in your energy-field.
But nobody seems to be able to plug into the next
power socket and switch on his own energy.

Has God made an error, when training you as
a marketing expert instead of an electrician?


Please enlighten me.

Michael

P.S.
Observe: Europe has 230 Volts,
the Indian 110 Volt will not do.

11848

The Tao of Electricity


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com,
"jyothishananda" <aghorabhairav@...> wrote:

> > But nobody seems to be able to plug into the next
> > power socket and switch on his own energy.
>
> So what is your solution?

To a woman I would answer:

"Contact to your energy source is
two inches below your navel."

To a man I would say nothing, because
a) they think they know anyway.
b) even if they'd get it, they'd only follow their own head.
c) they are only thinking about how to plug into
the woman's socket and without the help of the woman
they'd never find it anyway.


> (As Long As I am here, Say any thing,
> wrong about India, You will get Thunderbolt Lightening.......)

Well the Indians ARE darker, arent't they?
So the 230 volt seem wasted.
Perhaps a lightening might help _them_? (o|



St. Michael with the flamethrower
 

back

Let there be light! 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com,
"jyothishananda" <aghorabhairav@...> wrote:

> Why don't you think atleast some , few are
> trying sincerely? Why don't you talk about them?

But I'm talking the whole time about
and to these, who are only TRYING!

> Have you been in real touch?

Not with you, up to now.

But with myself I spent _some_ years.

Should anybody try to split me again into
that which I am and that which I should be,
she/he better gets ready for a good old
European flamethrower.
And I mean the ancient version
with teeth, claws and wings.


Cave Ka!

11854

Re: Why does it HAVE to be rough? - continued


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, rb2lb2@... wrote:
> I cannot remember a time when so many
> "bad things" happened at once
> I guess just looking for a reason to comfort me with.

What reality would any statement about you have,
if you had shown nothing about yourself?

When I read you, the keyword for me, which keeps
coming up again and again is "trust".

I suggest, that you contact somebody whom you
want (and can) trust. Otherwise you are on your
own, I think.


Good luck!
Michael
 

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: The Tao of Indian-Electricity 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com,
"jyothishananda" <aghorabhairav@...> wrote:

> How Soon You have shown your true colour, R U not a Racist?
> You Sucker?
> ...
> Dumb Arrogant, Racist Ignorant UnVedic people of your places.....


Thank you very much, you saved my evening. (:D

I had just pulled your leg, joked and pushed your buttons.
And you didn't get it.
You are soooooooooo easily influenced through words.
Did you get that at least?


Good night.
~~~ Michael with the flame tongue ~~~

P.S.
"UnVedic" will get a place of honor in my dictionary. 0(:D

Re: hard vs soft 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, Anupam Archer <oshoaloka@...>
wrote:

> I first stated that I had an alive discipleship.

Oooops. This sentence is a fit to the foto, where you
and Osho sit together with you doing the Namaste.


> Now on to try and read ... and more of LO.

This adds some more interpretations to LOL ;)


Best wishes for your health.
Michael

Pease wash me without water 


Good Morning,

--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, tara madeva <ma_devatara@...>
wrote:
>
> For thousands of millions of years we women have been
> doing all the work and you lot just sit about making inane
> wise cracks and bothering us with your so called witticisms
> [instead of doing something useful like milking the yak].

Regarding _you_ and _me_ the situation loooks pretty much
the other way around.

And regarding men and women it's also not true. After all
it was a man who did his dirty work first for many of years,
before he could give you Sannyas.

> You get on our nerves while we get the fire going
> and when we explode, you innocently were ofcourse only
> pulling our leg! Then when we hit you, you dare to Laugh
> Out Loud.
> It made your evening ; even more annoying!

Aha, you identify. Perfect. But I don't play the innocent,
I play the devil. That's more fun, Ma Deva, and more effective.


> Archan may not be angry
> but I have picked up more than my fair share
> from the female collective unconscious

Certainly, but that's not special. We all have more
than a fair share of the collective unconscious.
Otherwise we wouldn't be here.

But how do you think, these personal or unconscious
layers can be cleansed? By taking special precautions
not to touch anybody's unconscious material?

Please wash me, God, but don't make me wet?
Please heal me, but don't uncover my wounds?
Please let me live together peacefully with a man,
without the need to cleanse my male-female attic first?


C'me on, baby, project your man-woman negativity unto me.
I can take it. I have done my homework. And your holy
female nimbus could use a good washing, too.


Your decision. But don't whine afterwards,
when I played a role, you didn't get or didn't like.
As long as you are not ready to give up your part
of the games played betwen men and women, demanding
a change from the men is outright stupid, morally
unjust and psychologically completely incompetent.


Michael

Re: The Tao of Indian-Electricity 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com,
"jyothishananda" <aghorabhairav@...> wrote:
>
>
> If you know how to Push the Right Buttons, the right way,
> You will Get Enlightened Sonn! soooon..

No interest.

Re: hard vs soft 


--- Archan <oshoaloka@...> wrote:

> Yes, darling, and I have a thousand pictures in my memories of
> Osho namasting me.

Sure.

> Every time He stopped beside me, every time He saw me, every
> time I even glimpsed Him He namasted me. And always, always,
> He made the first namaste.

Certainly.

> If you had the whole video from which that photo is taken you
> would see who first greeted whom.

That's not the point at all. The question is: what was your answer?
Every time Osho did the Namaste to his disciples, he was looking
for an answer out of our energy (and not an automatic one from
our mind).


I don't need a single video, I have an open energy.
If an enlightened master would do the Master's Greeting Kriya
Namaste nowadays in my presense, it would probably
take about half a second until I find myself with the
face flat on the ground. And I would not have done it,
it would be a direct response from my energy.

Let me call that answer
"The Landing of the High Flying Elefant", ok? :)

Any other answer from a disciple shows that he is
energetically closed and unavailable to the master's energy.


Kriyas are gestures, which are hardwired into our
energy system - no matter, wether we know or don't,
no matter what race or ethnic origin we are from.



> Don't downgrade that, Michael. That's a stupid low
> blow to Him, not to me.

Not at all; it's just a friendly wakeup punch into you
Sannyas-Ego. If you see that as a low blow at you or even
at Osho, that's only because you try to project your ego from
the feeling of shame arising from your Being, probably.


> You know perfectly well He always greeted all of us that way.
> Has your memory gone?

My memory is very clear about it, and the corresponding shame
is also already felt by me - 13 years ago, when the energy awoke
in me.

We nearly always answered back with the same gesture.
An exception for example was Sheela's reaction, about which
was spoken in a lecture, which can be found on the CD.


Greetings
Michael

P.S.
Shame is that feeling, when something becomes apparent, which
our ego wants to hide.

Re: Why does it HAVE to be rough? - continued 


Hi Laura,

thank you for sharing. Sounds good to me.

I remeber having heard or read many years ago
(but don't know where):

"Accept your suffering
with your whole self,
because without the self,
where would be the suffering?"

That sentence never lost me.



But of course, if there is pain in the body,
visiting a medical doctor is the right thing to do.
Giving the body support is a way to say "Thank You"
to it and to existence.


Michael

Re: Pease wash me without water 


Hi Devil,

--- tara madeva <ma_devatara@...> wrote:

> Dont take me so seriously I'm only playing!

Playing is the only thing I'm doing seriously.


> As far as cleansing, first do we all know , I
> didnt previously, that our pain, anger is not
> just personal to us ?

I have the same feeling, but I think the _feeling_
must be done personally.

Below the Sahara desert there is a big sea of water,
but to get it up, individual wells are needed.



> I know that something happens [ cleansing?]
> when it isnt repressed but felt,

Yes. 100% agreed.


> It is your male collective unconscious that you are just
> venting , OK .....

ALL males are unconcious and ALL women are to be blamed
for for it. After all nearly every man was raised by a woman.


> I can take it but do you really think it is appropriate
> to be quite so disgusting and vulgar to me?

You mean I should LOVE you less?


> Let it come up but modify the mail a bit before you press
> 'send' in the interests of common decency

Email nivrtti?

Re: Death aand the rabbit, part 2 


--- "hans" <hans_vandergugten@...> wrote to Dharia:

> Yeah, keep them old sannyassins busy.
> It amazes me more and more that they all want to talk with you
> and get furious when a guy like Michael walks in.
> (Yeah, Michael, start running away)
> Geriontological patients entertaining the Nanny?

Hans what was that? Plase explain as long it's meant
for me (if it was that at all).

Michael

Re: hard vs soft 


--- Anupam Archer <oshoaloka@...> wrote:
>
> Gratitude, Michael. That's all I'm saying. My heart is full of
> gratitude for Him. If you don't have it, ok.

That's where you misread me.

> Your exhortations are going to accomplish nothing but pain
> for you.

Pain, yes. But not "nothing but ...".

> They aren't going to affect anybody else.

A nice typo.

> Your pain comes across like a waving red flag, Michael.
> If only you could see it.

I feel the pain, and it feels like a collective
Sannyas thing also. So I express it where I feel it.

Re: The Tao of Indian-Electricity 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com,
"jyothishananda" <aghorabhairav@...> wrote:
>
>
> 'interest' applies only to impermanent things.....

Yes, and wanting enlightenment is an ego trip
therefore not only impermanent but against reality.

Did Osho ever push buttons? 


Never. Never. Never ever.
I wonder why you still discuss that at all.

He just wanted to create the first spiritual Rolls Royce
museum on earth, that was no button pushing, but a cultural
revolution. And the life show "The Daily Nazi" was only done,
because Oregon was so dull and needed some meditative
entertainment. Nothing to say about the whole setup
of the lectures: after all, a button labelled
"spirituality" is per definition not a button,
but a spiritual device. Isn't it?
And teaching individuality by military-like
YAHOO! YAHOO! YAHOO! YAHOO! YAHOO! is one of his
ingeniuous, copyrighted Neo-techniques and nothing else.

Similiar things hold true for giving the ancient spiritual
titles Ma and Swami to everyone, who happened to have a
neck to put the mala around, or the possibilities to become
meditation leader, therapist, healer, energy reader
etc. after a few weeks or at most 3 months training only.

DON'T PUT MY BELOVED MASTER DOWN
by even thinking he could be a button pusher
or his Beloved Sannyasins could have had some buttons
to be pushed or could not have enough intelligence to
recognize after 35 years which of their buttons where
hammered in and glued to their bones with super glue.

He is a Master. A Master can do everything.
Educating things which cannot be learned,
exercising a state which happens in non-doing only,
attaining the final state of non-reaching by effort,
lectures for the mind to learn about the no-mind...
all that (and more) shows:

He is the Greatest Master in no-button-pushing.


Love, Light, Laughter
Sw. Life Show

certified Energy and Chakra Reader
and successful graduate of the
Spiritual Science Training

Re: Did Osho ever push buttons? 


The problems start, when we become so used to being
judged and controlled, that we start judging and
controlling ourselves. In the beginning we still
know, that we do it, but pretty soon, we forget the
"morale" and become the person. Then everything becomes
easier - we need no longer behave in a certain way,
we just _are_ what we should be. We have become _somebody_.
And the pain to have to be somebody, the pain not to be
ourselves gets forgotten.

But deep down we remain what we are. There is no way
to become anybody else. It's impossible. The pain gets
projected unto other people as morale, gets projected
unto religion and spirituality as a longing...
We start seeing in others, what is hurting ourselves most
- or in the case of positive projection - we see in
holy women and men, what we are missing in ourselves most.
But these two projection between good and bad is just
a symptom of our own split, our internalized split between
what we are and what we should be (and have started to think
we are).


I don't contrive to upset, I just use my intellect and word
powers afterwards to explain what was happening. I try to
help people with similiar upsetting talents not to fight
these anti-social talents too much. Because these talents are
needed. But they are needed in a refined and cleansed form.

I say this not to protect myself from judging. I just see
in you some talent to help contrivers out of the mind with
your chaotic mixture of feelings and thoughts and your
compassion for them. But you have to get yourself clearer
first, for my feeling.


The society is ill, but individuals can become whole again.
Yet it's neither easy nor quick.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Don't judge yourself before you know who you are.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And don't hesitate to judge me :)

Michael


--- tara madeva <ma_devatara@...> wrote:
>
> I see the word 'effort'
> [I also see the necessity of a contrast to 'non-reaching' in the
joke]
>
> However ...'Allowing' is an alternative word which like.
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I allow ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> If someone makes a contrived effort to press buttons, who do they
think they are?
> [No advaita intended]
> The same words if they come naturally do not have the same
intention
> because they are really coming from that person.
> And I will have to put up with it .
>
> It might still hurt me being on the receiving end. But we cant
have our friends not being themselves.
>
>
> We know if we are more fragile emotionally than others but
maybe it can be an opportunity to allow awareness at the same time
as interaction.
>
> Tara

Re: Why does it HAVE to be rough? - continued

--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, rb2lb2@... wrote:

> > "Accept your suffering
> > with your whole self,
> > because without the self,
> > where would be the suffering?"

> I don't know "how to do this"

Yes, I know "it cannot be done", especially
when it's needed most. For me it was just a reminder,
more a road sign than a free ride, so to say.
Or as it was said in the Ashram (I think) to somebody
in great relationship-suffering:

"stay open as much and as long as possible."


But although it's more an attitude than a doing,
there are supportive things we can do, if we remember
it when we recognize our resistance (or we could also
do it as a sort of meditation to become used to it).

It's opening the mouth, letting the chin loose, and
breathing relaxed but deeply through the open mouth.
Breathing in is done into the breast, it expands the
upper part of the breast significantly. And breathing
out should go as low as possible, it should touch the
spot 2 inches below the navel. After a while the breathing
is no longer done, but becomes a flow. Bioenergetic
trainers can probably help "learning" it.

Body and emotions are one, that's how it functions.

And don't be surpised, should emotions become stronger
through this execise, such an emotional release is exactly
what this exercise is for. After a while even the strongest
emotions die away on their own, though they tend to come again
and again like big, long ocean waves for a while.

Body knows how to heal itself.
Mind is part of the body
(and not vice versa).


Michael

Re: Did Osho ever push buttons?

--- tara madeva <ma_devatara@...> wrote:
>
> .
> That you reply to my contrived with contrive
> I see you think I might be addressing you.
> I wasnt but that's ok*

I was not sure, end then noticed I wanted to write to you,
so I answered.

> *I was concerned for my friend Subhuti
> who voiced how it felt to him

BIG HEAD Subhuti? That's a really good sparrings
partner for an anti-contriving S.W.A.T. - isn't he?

:)=)

Hi Subhuti!


Michael

German quality has it's price 


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@... wrote:
> > Michael and Hans,
> > Here is a disciple for you both as you
> > both claim to know much ABOUT Osho.
> But they are NOT Indians,
> so how can they know?

I cannot speak for Hans, but I have been an Indian housewife
in a past life. I pretty well remember when I came to Poona.

But with good Karma I managed to be reborn as a German man
and was send by the Tao to the present center for spiritual
mastership: Munich.

As a consequence the qality of possible disciplehood has
increased dramatically. Advance pay in Euro, naturally,
and no longer in Rupies.

I and God decided to call it the
Zeroversity for Neon-Sannyas.
Neon-Enlightenment guaranteed.
Hat with batteries and blue LEDs included.

== Better shining without whining ==


Blessings
(you may need it,
should you have read so far)
Michael

Re: If I am too hard for you, you are too soft with yourself. / land mines 


Hi Hans,

long question, hopefully I will be shorter
with my answer:



If you feel, that what I wrote is not for you,
then it's not for you.

If you are not sure, then you may have problems
with feeling. So learn it. But that's allready
the hard way probably. ;)


Please observe, that I write for people first and
for the list only as a second thought (or sometimes).
That's how I like to communicate, that's my way.

I have not addressed you or N0by with this list of
a), b) c) ... The person(s) for whom it was meant,
know, that they had been addressed. If N0by makes
a website out of it, instead of using it in his own
life, that's his way. If you make questions out of it,
that's your way. If I make a list out of my personal
experiences and insights that's my way - I sometimes
don't feel at ease if I don't write or say something,
and then I write or say it.


For many years by now, I've tried to share my experiences
about the Kundalini process in the internet and in personal
talks. Basically this was created by my self to make sure,
that I get my neccessary share of ego-beating, I think.
But finally the energy-induced urge to say something is
becoming less in me. Even persons, who are energetically
very similiar to myself (to which I used to react like
hell, if you remember), I need no longer try to tell
anything. That's very relaxing.

Everybody is his own light.


That was my answer to you - today.



How is your boat?
Did you make a tour
with your new machine?
That's what interests me, for example.

Best Greetings
Michael

Re: Thorn counters versus rose counters 


There are people who, if they come in contact with each other,
first count the differences between opinions -- opinions matter
to them, humans they can't feel, souls they can't see.

Whenever they meet somebody, they will immediatedly classify
the other -- that is somebody who is saying the same things that
I think, he must be a friend. That other one is not so good
a fit, he must be useless for my life, he is a stranger.
And yet another one has totally different beliefs, he is an
intruder, an enemy, somebody who must be faught against.
Especially if he is not silent.

Those people only live their oppinions, they don't live their hearts.
No matter what they call their opinions -- philosophy, psychology,
politics, science, religion, culture or spirituality -- it's allways
based on words and books, because only within dead things they feel
safe. Only when something can no longer change, they believe it must
be the truth.

When Jesus came and said: "God is Love", they said: "Kill him. He
is destroying our holy scriptures.", when Buddha came and said
"Kill the Buddha on the path", they wrote down his Sutras and started
to recite them for thousands of years. And when Osho came and said:
"Don't follow me, when I am dead. Follow a living master only,
if you cannot yet follow your own light.", they waited until he
was dead and then declared him to have never died and used his
words as they allways used words -- to protect their own opinions
and self-image only.


Those people will never die, 'cause
they never lived in the first place.



MICHAEL
Jan 15th, 2007, in LivingOsho

Re: Thorn counters versus rose counters 


Hi Dharia,

thank you for sharing about the party - very interesting.


> I also remember reading from Osho, when he asked one of
> the disciples, what would you
> do when I leave the body...or something like that, the
> disciple said, I will be independent,
> on my own...or something like that and Osho said that
> it was the ego talking.

Well, you know, such statement are allways related to the
person and situation at hand. When I became a little more
experienced than before I went so a few groups and Satsangs and
watched what was happening with more open eyes than before.
What was said by the master/teacher had direct connections
to the energy and the persons in the room. Sometimes for example
the teacher would be working on a person in an indirect way,
by talking to the group at large or to a third person, but in fact
talking for that certain disciple and about a theme, which was
obviously meant for him/her. And allways there have been at least
two levels of communication - the outside, apparent one and the
nonverbal level bolaw. Often the master expressed opposite things
on these levels. That way, I think, the disciple is trained to
listen to the non-verbal level and follow only it (and not his
verbal thinking).

Well whatever; the above quote about the ego was certainly meant
for that Sannyasin, with whom Osho was in dialogue, and not for
you or me. 'Cause we have not been there.



> It could be, that you personally, Michael, needed/need a guru,
> since you did not get to
> spend as much time with Osho and maybe because you simply need,
> so you had other
> gurus after that, nothing wrong with that, but they may not
> apply to all people.

Perhaps it might help you more to figure out, what you need.
I don't need your analysis, thank you.


But if you want to fill your head, help yourself with my answers:


Which Guru is less important than wether and how the disciple
is able to learn from him/her. The ego allways wants to have the
greatest master, but the energy decides whith whom and when we
learn what. In fact it is decided before we are born, who is
teaching us what. At least that's my experience.

In essence the outer guru's job is done anyway when the difficult
part of the jouerney starts. It is said:

The Outer Master leads to the Inner Master,
and the Inner Master leads to freedom.



What needs also to be noted is, that the relationship
between a Guide and disciple depends on the energy-structure
of the disciple.

It can be a God-human affair
It can be a love-affair.
It can be mentor-disciple relationship.
It can be friendship.

One is not higher or lower than the other, what is important
is just, that it is a true expression of the disciple's nature.
And the teacher will mirror that nature to help the disciple to
recognize at accept him/her self.

And within these kinds of relationship a development is also
natural. So there is much to learn...

Yet, if you don't know yourself to the deepest core
of your existence, you know nothing and remain a piece
of straw in the wind. :)


Have a nice day
Michael

Osho's active meditations 


Hi Daniel!

> Has anyone here reached a full kundalini rising with Osho's
> active meditation techniques ?

Probably -- when Osho lead the meditations personally and
some time later also (until about 1972). His accompanying
lectures from that time show, that raising the Kundalini
was one of his goals at that time, and that many of his
Sannyasins must have had raising Kundalini then also.
Later an energy blocker was added by him to the Dynamic
(the stop phase).

The most important factor when using techniques to raise the
Kundalini is that the techniques are guided by an energy
trainer who is allready herself experienced enough with such
techniques. It's unwise and dangerous to try it alone
(in case, that such an idea could have been in the background
of your question).



> What have you achieved with them ? Can deep
> meditations (samadhi) be reached with them,
> or are they for other purposes ?

I assume you have no personal experiences, hence you speak about
"reaching" Kundalini raising and about "purposes" regarding the
state of meditation. But that's both a contradiction in itself.

May I suggest, that you make up your mind first?
After all both themes are part of the subjective
(and not of the objective) world.
And both are irreversible experiences.



Have a nice day
Michael

Re: Meher Baba saying 


--- the buff <spiritual_buffalo@...> wrote:
>
> On Tuesday 16 January 2007 03:22, Dharia wrote:
> > "The goal of life is not in finding God, but in losing yourself."
> >
> > Meher Baba
>
> Is there a difference?

Why do you ask? :)

Re: Osho's active meditations 


--- the buff <spiritual_buffalo@...> wrote:

> We have here an expert on Kundalini happenings, Michael,

Really an "expert"? Envy?

> and he will be along
> shortly to give you as much information/insight as you want.

Kundalini is not about giving you what you want,
but what you need. Go eat some grass, buffalo.

> For now, I will share that Osho's active meditation
> techniques are the *best*
> way to have a 'full kundalini rising'.

Have been the best published techniques in 1968.
There are better ones nowadays.

> I find that other techniques give, at
> best, a partial kundalini rising, which
> is sometimes a little painful, even
> embarassing, depending on the company.

Everthing depends on the company, especially
the nice things (like sex for example). And
with the right company a partial raising is
not a problem but called 'foreplay'.

You don't know many of the other techniques,
obviously.


> Of course, deep meditation (or even samadhi) can be
> reached with them, but there are many other purposes.
> In fact, I consider Samadhi to one of the more
> mundane uses of rising kundalini. Rather old fashioned,
> although I'll get flamed for writing that.

Buffaloshit.

To be born can lead to be a Mozart or a Kabir, but both
are different dimensions.

If your Being is determined to live the life of a murderer,
a Rising Kundalini will only enpower that and speed it up.

Kundalini raising equals to 100% of your energy
- that was Osho's definition.

> No matter, a fully risen kundalini is proof against
> the most pyrrhic of flames here. Anyway, as I was saying,
> other uses... I've
> found the kundalini energy useful when I'm in the mountains
> and need to light
> a fire, especially when the wood is damp.

More buffaloshit. A good army storm lighter is more
useful in other situations also. See http://thiefdoor.net

> Or during boring family gatherings
> when Aunt Bertha is in the middle of
> one of her long reminiscences.

Family genes?

> Even in the bar, when it's hard to get the waitress'
> attention, a quick burst of
> kundalini is enough to get a beer delivered pronto
> (although if it is a pils,
> I still have to wait the statutory 9 minutes).

You are mixing Bavarian qualities with spiritual situations.
Never mix the higher with the lower.


Michael

Re: Osho's active meditations 


--- the buff <spiritual_buffalo@...> wrote:

> Satire, Michael, satire.

Towards a newbie?

Well, after all:

The really HOT satire today is the quote of Meher Baba
together with all the affirmative answers. That's utmost pinkish.
Or is it satire only when all laugh about one and not vice versa?


Michael

Re: The Sarcasm Mark 


~~ And a double sarcasms mark takes it back? ~~
~~~ thank you very much ~~~
~~~~ that was very helpful ~~~~
~~~~~ but: ~~~~~




What I'm really missing is a mark for
"switch on your brain before reading"

what about using the ninefould sarcasm mark for that?

~~~~~~~~~ like this

and then we need the closing mark, too, meaning
"you can now switch out your brain again"

like that: ~~~~~~~~~~


Michael

P.S.
The question remains, how to mark Osho quotes.
Should one switch on the brain before them and
relax into non-conscious celebrating afterwards
or is it more disciple-like the other way around?

Re: Osho's active meditations 


--- the buff <spiritual_buffalo@...> wrote:

> ... And satire does need an object to be 'satirical about',
> one can't just 'be satirical'.

I'm sure, YOU can. Don't be so shy.


> But I'm not sure that the quote of Meher Baba and the
> following responses qualifies as satire. What did you
> find satirical about it?

I'm unsure wether it would be polite to tell somebody
with more than 25 years of Sannyas-growth such mundane
beginner secrets. So I'm just waiting for a sincere
(yet beginning) seeker/seektress to ask me that. After
all I have allready 49 penalty points on my Sannyas
politeness pass, so I have to be careful.



Michael

Re: The Sarcasm Mark 


--- the buff <spiritual_buffalo@...> wrote:

> Or, if you can function right now, here in this moment,
> through your consciousness, through your being aware,
> putting aside all that you have known -- this is what I call
> functioning through no-knowledge, this is
> functioning through innocence. And this is maturity.

No, it's not maturity. It's YOUR DEFINITION of 'maturity'.

> The mind is immature when it is not ready to learn.
> The ego feels very
> fulfilled if it need not learn anything from anybody;
> the ego feels very
> enhanced if it feels that it already knows. But the
> problem is that life goes
> on changing, it is never the same; it goes on flowing,
> it is a flux. And your
> knowledge is always the same.

I agree more or less to those statements.
But they are missing something for my taste.

First of all the cause for the fixedness of the ego is not
looked at throroughly enough. Consequently the ego is only
seen as the modern western ego. But I can well imagine
(eastern or native?) personalities, who derive their identification,
pride and security from being perfect learners from others.

Parallel to that there is not enough light on the circumstances
under which an ego does not want to learn and needs to know
already. Female egos for example need not know everything,
but are hurt deeply when you say to them, that they don't feel.

And finally, to use the personal pronoun ("your" knowledge) in
a discussion about ego shows, that the writer is not able to
see and describe the situation from a more free standpoint.


Buffalo, when have you stopped learning?

Michael

Re: The Sarcasm Mark 


--- the buff <spiritual_buffalo@...> wrote:
>
> I think we have a misunderstanding. The quotes are from Osho,
> better you ask him. I just used them as examples of how
> I would use the marks.
> It was a response to your:
> >> The question remains, how to mark Osho quotes.
> from a previous mail.

I asked Osho what to do, and he smiled and said

"Go on hammering their heads,
whenever they hide behind my words."

"But you ..."

"No problem, Jivano, I know my Sannyasins.
You all will keep on hammering and hammering back.
That will become a great celebration for all of you.
I've spoken enough - 666 books have been filled with
my words, so that everybody can hide behind my words,
no matter what his standpoint is, and everybody else
can hammer on his head using my words also. Just make
sure, that you don't forget your humor, hhhhm?
After all you are a German, Jivano. Not your fault,
but ..."

"A blessing in disguise?"

To which I got no answer.

12074

If I am, you are too / land mines / houseboats


Hi Hans,

so it seems, while getting old I forget even to whom
I answer. What a blessing!

> Thanks for sharing. Remarkable.
> (It was an answer to a question that I asked you.
> And you apparently are not willing to answer this
> question directly. We'll have to live with that.)

What was the question? And who was the questioner?
If it was you, then why do you say "WE"?

> Ah, you were writing it to him??

To Noby? He is reading everything, so it's difficult
not to write to him.


> Note. i'll try to share a album with pics of the
> taking out of the engine. it needs a seperate message
> from my yahoo mail i think.

You did that allready in past life, didn't you?



Having B&B on your boat is a great idea.

If it's translated as Buddha & Bullshit,
I have it also here in my appartment.
More than enough ;)

I'm back into my computer-job now. You know,
I was allways, but now I'm getting money again for it.
No longer on welfare (which is the Jewish star of the
modern Germany). Now I say "Arbeit macht frei" - work
makes free (which was written also at the entrance to
KZ Dachau).


Cobblestone pie!

 

back

12084

Re: Meher Baba saying


--- In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, "Shantam" <me@...> wrote:
>
> It's also "Not true"
>
>
> "Goal of life.." ??
>
> One can smell the ambition right around the corner when there is
> any "goal of..."
> Something our good friend J. Krishnamurti pointed out his whole
> life


That was the last millenium (Meher Baba as well as J.K. and
as well as Osho). We now need a radically different approach.
Some very basic assumtions are no longer true - e.g. master-
disciplehood is OUT for most seekers.

But as I use to tell again and again and in vain and in vain
the list keeps digging around in scriptures of dead people.

Because that is easier, hhhmm?

Instead of following our own experiences we do spiritual
archology.

@Shantam: taking refuge in J. Krishnamurti will not help,
I know from his texts, that he did not have certain techniques,
which are now not only possible, but natural. For example
the direct contact to the center - he was sad that he didn't have
it, that's why he tried to go thru the mind.

The earth has developed during the last 40 to 50 years;
the energy level is much higher than in the 1960ies.
Which can BTW seen in the grown grazyness of the world.


Michael
 

back

12090

Re: So whenever you can, just go for a walk in the rain.


My God, I'm really getting too much.

That was India in 1976.

Now transfer that to Europe or the USA in 2006.

If you ever tried walking in the rain these days,
you will be happy if you make it back home without
being blown away or frozen to death in the winter storms.

And it was meant for one specific person at that specific time.

It was a personal master-disciple dialogue, and you go and
publish it for 400 people. How many of them have the name
Indra? And how many of these Indras are living in a warm
enough contry at the moment? So we need an Indra from Down Under,
Africa or South America before this text may be - may be - useful.


What you don't seem to get is:

Osho used spiritual themes to blow up the ego and to overload
the mind. That's why he made sure, that nearly everything was
recorded. It was his strategy: only a "ripe" ego can be dropped,
in fact when it's big enough, it will create so many problems
and sufferings, that it MUST be dropped.

But you don't seem to have enough already.

I'll have to make a walk in the rain these days, that will
silence me for ever. Just wait for the next hurricane.


Ancient list
Michael jumps in
blown up
blown away
silence
 

back

12134

Astral Movie Projections


If we were living here totally, in this life, in this body,
naturally and as a part of the whole nature,
then why should we be insterested in any "magic"?
Nature is enough, more than enough. Magic only comes
in, if we try to understand something, which we cannot
understand at the moment, and when we are unwilling to
admit our lack of power over it.

If (say) astral projection was part of nature, then
why would anybody be interested to call it "magic"?

The whole discussion shows, how far we have gone astray.
We have not gone astral - we have gone astray.
Now we even try to grasp the astral plane with the mind.
That's comparable to changing the programming of my computer,
when I have problems with people. Stupid. At best: stupid.


Loss of reality is finally the source of any suffering.


Michael
 

back

12135

Re: Astral projection


-- Bones said:

> I'm not initiated.

Another unborn guest on this planet?
I think, we need better terrestric visa controls.
No unborn should be allowed to pay taxes !!!


Michael

P.S. You may have recognized: I just managed to
fill in some nasty tax-forms.


 

back

12138

Re: Astral projection and other esoteric bullshit


Hi hot air balloon!

--- "Nirguna" <anandnirguna@...> quoted Osho:

> ... I can say all these things to you because I don't claim
> any extraordinariness about myself. I am a simple, ordinary,
> natural human being.

But to his Sannyasins he is infallible, undying, still connecting
with them from the astral level. And no day will ever pass without
Sannyasins quoting him with "I will dissolve into my people..."

Sannyasins identify with Osho to such an extreme extend, that
they even give up their own development just to remain a Sannyasin.


Sannyasins are instant Oshos - Osho dissolved and immediatedly
drinkable: infallible, never born, never dying, connecting
to their arosen master on the astral level, knowing perfectly
well, what enlightenment is, without being too proud to claim it
openly, with an open heart from here to eternety and the biggestes
watchers since the T-Rex decided to leave the biosphere...


> Perhaps this is the first time any enlightened man has had
> the courage to say that he is just ordinary, simple, natural.

Indirectly this sentence states that a enlightened man is
something special, otherwise there would be not need to
say that he is ordinary. Indirectly and in all his lectures
and with a lot of power, Osho planted into the minds of
his Sannyasins that "enlightenment" is sooooo special.

You think, that's fiction? I'd say, that's facts.


We are the most humble people on earth!
Our enlightenment is sooooo special,
we can afford even to be ordinary!!!

YEAH!

More gas for the balloon!

Hallelujah!



Michael

back

12143

Re: Astral projection and other esoteric bullshit


--- "Satrakshita" <satrakshita@...> wrote:

> Argumentum ad Hominem
> Translation: "Argument against the man", Latin
> Alias: The Fallacy of Personal Attack

Saving the person cripples the heart,
because the persona is crippling the heart.
One is the lack of the other.

And, man, that was a very personal comment,
because if it was not you and your person,
I would've said something totally different.

I need not even think about it much, I just
follow the impulses coming out of my Buddha
belly and form words around them.

My Buddha loves to attack personalities,
first of all my own. But if a friend comes
by and asks, Buddha Ka is no miser...


Ka dixit, Japanese and Latin

 

back

12144

Strong Buddha - strong ego


In LivingOsho@yahoogroups.com, swamiali@...
identified with big thinking balloon and said
something, which was not important according
to his own words.


OK, Ali. I'll use another picture.

Gas you have enough, but you drove into a dead end
and don't dare to falsify yourself by turning around.
Now you sit in your taxi, your tires are flat and
you read All and Everything. Years ago you have decided
that where you are now was allways the goal.

Intelligent strategy. But intelligence is not
enough. Braveness to doubt one's own thinking
and Being ready to go against one's own spiritual
conditioning is also needed.

Suviro is the name of your Buddha
and not the name of your ego.


Greetings from Ka (an old friend of Suviro)

Michael
 

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12148

Re: Astral projection


--- Bones wrote:

> > I think, we need better terrestric visa controls.
> > No unborn should be allowed to pay taxes !!!
>
> That's exactly what I said to the IRS officer when
> he shoved his badge up my ass !

So at least you have an ass. That qualifies you
for a social year in Iraq.

Enlisted.

Undress and go thru the next door to
get a shower and a decent tentacle-cut.

back

12153

Astral projection and other esoteric bullshit


Satrakshita, you need many words to understand...
OK, let's do the job...

Finally a discussion with substance, very good.


--- Satrakshita <satrakshita@...> wrote:

> What you say sounds like a premise you endorse
> to justify your actions
> and make them more acceptable within a sannyas context.

No. I don't justify my actions.
And the Sannyas context is not mine.
I am part of it, but I down't own it,
and I don't claim to be a rulesetter here.
I just do what i feel right to do.
Not more and not less also.


> You don't exactly quote Osho, but it's clear you've
> picked up the idea behind your words from his books.
> "When you are not, God is; when you are, God is not."

It's clear that you can only imagine intelligent statements
coming out of books - esp. Osho books. Which implies, that
you have no own experience, and have not even read Osho's books
thoroughly.


> Actually what you're saying is, that you're here to
> do a wonderful job.

I'm here, is that not enough for you?
Are you here because of a reason - wonderful or not?
Then you follow your reason only.
I'm just explaining what happens, when I'm here.
Probably for people, who need many words ;)

That the world is wonderful is not my doing,
but if I see something which i could improve...


> Painful perhaps, but rewarding, if not understood by the attacked
> personalities right now, in the end the freed Buddhas
> will be grateful to you.

You have no idea, what a Buddha is and how these
monsters express their gratefulness.

Let's try to help you getting an idea:

I'm here because of my gratitude towards Osho
and because of the Love for his people.


> In the beginning the medicine may be bitter,
> but the aftertaste
> will be sweet.
> You are a nice man...

Thank you for the compliments of the reason. :)


> It's your *Buddha* attacking other people's *personalities*?

First prove, that is is _your_ personality, before you complain.
As far as I can see, the topmost layers of your personality
have been created by Osho as a device, so it is HIS to destroy it
again also. I know, that task is impossible for me to do, but if
Life sends me here to try it, who am I to say no?


> It sounds so right again in a sannyas context,
> you know. Your actions
> are truely justified and acceptable.

I repeat: I need no justification and I don't
need your acceptance also. Acceptance from an ego
is anyway only a sort of bargain.
And the Sannyas context is Osho's, not your's.


> One would almost encourage you to carry on!
> However, before you continue to fool yourself,
> perhaps a good idea to consider this:
> If, as you say, you love to attack your own
> personalities, it means they
> are still there, obviously.
> If we then go back to your first statement:
>
> "Saving the person cripples the heart,
> because the persona is crippling the heart.
> One is the lack of the other."

If you go back in a discussion, than PLEASE while doing so,
show that you have not fallen asleep during it.

Have you forgotten, that I get beaten by a number of personas
like you, while you get beaten only by one?



> It follows that the heart is lacking, which is a
> drag if your Buddha is to do a proper job.

He's doing a very good job, isn't he?
You are getting at my nerves, while I do my best to
destroy my reputation as an intelligent being.

So what problems do you have?
Your fixed idea of being heartful does not fit
with my reality? Then you must either be lying
or you don't get ANYthing.

If one or the other of my arguments hit a sour spot
in you, then go and look, goddamn. It's _your_ sourness.
After all this is a Sannyas context. And Sannyas doesn't
mean to stop learning after Osho died, or do you question that?


But don't forget: it's Osho's context, not your's.
Even if you bow down trice daily and recite Osho's
lectures in raised tone, it will never become your
context.


Michael
 

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Re: Astral projection and other esoteric bullshit 


--- Bones wrote:

> The thing here is identify what is esoteric and what is natural.

Hhhmmm. This sound pretty like the discussion raised 5000 years
ago, wether the god of fire and the god of lightening were
identical or close relatives only.


> Is it natural to you to move your consciousness to your
> fourth body, since
> it is only another body ?

No. It's not natural for me to count in which body I am.
Or have you numbered the rooms of your house?
In that case you must be the owner of an hotel.



Michael

Re: The ego feeds on no, it is its nourishment. 


--- "Arpana" <rpana3@...> quoted Osho:

> Whenever a man of truth speaks, he speaks in a humble way,
> he speaks in a simple way.

And he speaks in an effective way.
Or have you forgotten yourself saying:

"Truth is what works."

12161

Re: Astral projection and other esoteric bullshit 


--- Satrakshita <satrakshita@...> wrote:

> Truth is, I didn't really need your many words
> in the first place, Michael.

I see. You prefer to use many words yourself.

#12170

Re: If I am, you are too / land mines / houseboats / concentration camps 


Hi Hans,

--- "hans" <hans_vandergugten@...> wrote:

> Because, wherever we are, it is very often an issue how
> you relate to people, especially the question why u are
> so rude so often.

Essentially I don't know. I could give some explanations,
but essentially I don't know any "why". Do you know, why you
are as you are? I can only hope, that this rudeness helps
somehow and someone. At least it was good for me most of the
time. Wether it's proper in the present also, I'll have to find
out each moment.



> (I often wondered why you ended up on welfare with your
> capacities, but never dared to ask, besides I wondered
> several times about the same about myself :-)).

Such things are typical in a certain phase, they can be found
in the biographies of many people, who became independant from
the society. I created it myself - without knowing that in the
beginning.


> Is this job with this Zeitung?

You mean the linkszeitung.de? No, the LZ has no money.


> I went to Dachau in a weekend of a retreat with Isaac
> in 2004. A quite undescribable experience.

Yes, the reality of our human capacity for such things
is heavy. But such things have not ended yet, the smell
is still all over the planet and deep in our unconsciousness.
We have not given up, on the contrary - we improved
unhumanity with psychological methods - see Guantanamo etc.

> > Cobblestone pie!
> Whatever?

A part of a verse in The Tao of Pooh.
A verse for notoric questioners.
Hence I thought it might be a good
ending for a letter to you. ;)

"... you ask me a riddle, and I reply:
cobblestone, cobblestone, cobblestone pie."


'Night

Michael

P.S. I might not be here so often during the
next weeks; I have to work more.



 Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:15 am  

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Re: If I am, you are too / land mines / houseboats / concentration camps


Hi Tara,

--- tara madeva <ma_devatara@...> wrote:
> I dont mind hearing the information that you have
> gleaned and then share mainly

I have not gleaned information, I have lived thru situations.
Knowing comes after the experience for me, that was allways
so for me in my whole life.


> You mentioned that the spiritual ego could go [ first] .
> That there was still further ego.
> Would this be like fear of survival for the body,
> things to do with eating in greed?
> Because daily greed still exists.

YEAH!


> Also the ego of man is mindbased , in women feelings,

That was a simplification. I also know women who have a
self-image based on thinking.

And Ego and Buddha are just didactical concepts. Now I say
it's just me, who is doing this or that. But in the beginning
the distinction between ego and Buddha is very helpful, and
also to give that a name, which is suppressed by society
(the Buddha nature), as opposed to that, which is supported
by others (the ego).


> but it also it doesnt help so much in the women/feeling area
> because we then get a feeling about that too, it feels that
> the word ego is judgemental.

Between man and woman EVERYTHING can become judgemental and is
all too easily felt as judgemental, even if it wasn't meant that
way.



> In Consiousness letting it be without the feeling that
> it should be anything other than it is at that moment
> works for me
>
> I suppose I have the same sort of F EE LING about you
> being how you are: It is as it is.

I see your point and agree fully.
Yet my expression would be a little different:

You are God.
You are Love.
That's as it is
at least sometimes.



Greetings
Michael
 

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12185

Re: If I am, you are too / land mines / houseboats / concentration camps


--- tara madeva <ma_devatara@...> wrote:

> So with regard to greed
> are you saying it hasnt gone?
> and is that is your only comment?

I'm much less greedy/needy than I was 13 years ago.
I'd say I act 80% to 100% less greedy/needy now.
But still "I" am, although I have less fixed ideas
about myself. So in a way the "I" has become less
important for me, than it was before. But that too
is not important. Why should something in me "go",
and where should it go? Why should I judge myself
according to how much of this feeling or of that
character-fault I "still" have? What part of me
would do the judging and what part will be judged?

It's not my job to change myself. The very attitude to
improve me is part of the socially induced illness.
Look at the Sannyasins - how much spiritual ambition
is there. They "meditate" - that's bullshit.
If I want to sit, I sit. If I don't do it, I don't
feel so well, so I do it. If I have a certain body-position,
it feels better, so I sit in that position. You couldn't
call that meditating or spiritual - I mean you could, it's
not my business, but you wouldn't get me, if you would.


How much of the greed has gone? Am I meditating rightly?
Am I meditating enough? Oooh, my god, I am still jealous!
How angry I've been again! How much negativity is still
left in me after 30 years of Sannyas! Why do I enjoy, if
person X cries, that's not compassinate! Why do I quarrel
so much with the men I love? What is this devilish urge to
call him that I feel icecold in his arms, although we are
living a love relationship? And, and, and...


If I need to grow, Life will do it, it's not the job of
the grass to pull itself out of the earth towards the sky.

If I'm doing something, which I don't like in myself, I have
to understand myself better, I can experiment, change what
I can change. And what I cannot change at the moment is
something which I have to live thru.


These have been enough comments about me, now what
about you: one posting ago you said, I am to you "as I am".
One posting later you ask "hasn't your greed gone?".
That's what I call subconscious spiritual attitudes,
or "spiritual ego". That's what I call a split.

And the danger is not that you judge me - I can see those
attitudes immediatedly, when they are pointed at me.
The danger is that you look at yourself with similiar
judgements AND are unaware of it.

That's what is important for me: never, never ever being split
again into what I am and what I "should" be - especially not
from within myself.

What's your number one on your shopping list?



Michael

greedy, lazy, agressive, depressive, 110 kg,
negative, destructive, whatever -- but NOT TWO.
Most Sannyasins are split deeply into master
and disciple, I'm not.
 

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12192

 If I am, you are too / land mines / houseboats / concentration camps


--- "Dharia" <mapremdharia@...> wrote:
>
> Beloved Michael,
>
> That's the thing with meditation, all those question start
> disappearing when the mind
> starts disappearing.

Come on. Your mind is there all over the place. It's dripping
from every sntence you write. You have only learned to express
yourself in a more refined way, sinced I watched your postings.

Basically you still try to press everything into words and concepts.
EVERYTHING.
You even started to explain mindless states - well learned,
but only learned.

Obviously you have already learned to delude youself with your
believes. Forget it. Or write it down unto many sheets of paper,
so that you have something to burn, when it gets cold.


Michael

 

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12199

Re: If I am, you are too / land mines / houseboats / concentration camps


--- tara madeva <ma_devatara@...> wrote:

> I did not say 'hasnt your greed gone?'
> I am asking that in your
> Yes
> are you saying
> yes thats right my greed IS

In your very question you said more, than you admit now.
Just by asking a question about greed and by asking that
about another person, your focus became apparent. And by
arguing you try to play the game "you have not read
carefully, what I wrote". But I answered to you - as
I feel you. So it's your arguments against my feelings --
what do you think has more truth for me?

With such "games" you can mix up word- and thought-oriented
people (men mostly), but to find yourself you will probably
have to relinquish all your games for some time. Playing
games on the outside creates mist on the inside.

 

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12202

Re: If I am, you are too / land mines / houseboats / concentration camps


--- tara madeva <ma_devatara@...> wrote:

> You are the initiator of this inquiry in me ...

Just the next game. Intelligent, sophisticated, flexible,
but it's a game. Giving away responseability.

And not only egos play games, Buddhas
do also - especially young Buddhas.

You check me out, perhaps because you don't want to look
at yourself - if so, then probably in relation to
"spiritual ego", because that seemed to be your trigger.

But what I say is not that important.
Feelings and reactions are more important -
to see ourselves. If you don't want
to look at yourself so closely, then
why argue with me? Want to test me? Why?
Your own feelings will tell you, what is
true for you in what I say, I bet. So what the hell
are you doing? I don't get you. Why this word-shuffling?
Can't you communicate without your little female games?

Or have you not yet recognized that I - although I'm a man
and can use words - am guided by energies and feelings?

And I tell you: when a man discovers his feelings, that's
a lot of work first, but then his feelings are clearer,
fresher and less twisted than the feelings of a "normal" woman.
Cause the male feelings - when the man comes into contact with
them again finally - are more unused and less misused than
those of a "normal" female.


Every little game, every little lie, every little
escape costs awareness. That's my experience.
Whenever I don't try to express myself as exactly
as I feel, I make it a little more difficult for
myself to get to know who I am really. If that was
different for you, I'd be astonished.

You seem partially to be more interested in who others
are, than who you are yourself. Compassion? Interests
in Manipulation? Avoidance of yourself? Dunno.
But you know.


You wanted me to share - this was it.

Michael

 

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